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Zorro's w@nk fodder is undoubtedly a talent and has been effective in games and I hope we keep him next season and beyond. But recently he's offered little and can't be relied upon to have a big enough influence and score the one goal he'd be due in our remaining 7 league games based on season average indicates (including the one against the plumbers and postmen of Berwick 8 months ago). He hasn't created a lot for others either. Faubert has played a few games and was ineffective and unfit looking against Ross Co, but conversely was probably best player on pitch against Celtic. He's in possession of the jersey and showed a cool head and will provide valuable experience in the run in but if he underperforms I hope he's dropped like any other player. He's not the Messiah!

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5 hours ago, C4mmy31 said:

Are You

A)  His Agent?

B)  Pumpin him?

C)  Both?

D)  A concerned customer, worried I'm going to be asked to pay the same money, to watch lesser players, in a lower league, because our current midfield doesn't have the legs to get up and down the pitch or pose any kind of threat to the oppositions goal. 

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3 hours ago, Zorro said:

D)  A concerned customer, worried I'm going to be asked to pay the same money, to watch lesser players, in a lower league, because our current midfield doesn't have the legs to get up and down the pitch or pose any kind of threat to the oppositions goal. 

I would question your judgement 

To be fair 2 seasons ago you were singing Tesselaars praises. 

 

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7 hours ago, stewarty66 said:

I would question your judgement 

To be fair 2 seasons ago you were singing Tesselaars praises. 

 

I'd like to think you were honest enough to admit our league finishing position since he left has proved me right. 

Btw weren't you one of the Shiels out brigade? How's that working out?

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13 hours ago, Zorro said:

D)  A concerned customer, worried I'm going to be asked to pay the same money, to watch lesser players, in a lower league, because our current midfield doesn't have the legs to get up and down the pitch or pose any kind of threat to the oppositions goal. 

I'd be more concerned about Slaters drop off in form since Christmas, our destiny lies in our own hands and on present form Slater is less effective than Faubert, if you had been at the Celtic game you would have seen Fauberts work off the ball, he is only going to get fitter before and after the split .  At the end of the day none of us really see what Clark expects of them in training and tactically during games, if Slater was cutting the mustard he would be in the team.

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18 minutes ago, C4mmy31 said:

I'd be more concerned about Slaters drop off in form since Christmas, our destiny lies in our own hands and on present form Slater is less effective than Faubert, if you had been at the Celtic game you would have seen Fauberts work off the ball, he is only going to get fitter before and after the split .  At the end of the day none of us really see what Clark expects of them in training and tactically during games, if Slater was cutting the mustard he would be in the team.

Two things. I will have seen more of the play watching the game at home, than you will have in the stand. It's human nature to follow the ball at the match, whereas at home you're shown the wider picture, and endless replays.

If you'd watched the game at home, you'd have noticed Faubert was only effective in one third of the field. He doesn't have the legs to get up and down the pitch. That's fine against Celtic, where we sit in, but in games like the Ross County or Hearts game, where we are at least expected to make a game of it, it leaves our forwards without support and our defence without cover as he lumbers about. That's why it will be a big mistake to play him at Firhill. Patrick's movement and pace will be a handful for us with eleven players. Carrying him will be too much. 

Secondly. I'm not convinced by Clarks judgement in training either. C'mon playing two players out of position because Smith is injured, Tope played as a striker, and if he thinks Ashcroft is the answer, I don't even want to know what he thinks the question is. That bomb scare would have rightfully given away another penalty if Scottish refs were half competent. The 5-1 game against United should have been his last in professional football. And yes, I was at that match. 

Ps some of Slaters best football has been since Xmas. Rangers away (watched it on TVs), St Johnstone in the cup (went to game)Motherwell away (went to game). Wait I'm starting to see a pattern, do you think he plays better away from the East stand boo boys? 

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5 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Ps some of Slaters best football has been since Xmas. Rangers away (watched it on TVs), St Johnstone in the cup (went to game)Motherwell away (went to game). Wait I'm starting to see a pattern, do you think he plays better away from the East stand boo boys? 

Come on Zorro, there is a lot of garbage posted on this thread as it is without resorting to cliched stereotypes used by the gutter press. There are probably many reasons we play better away from home, the pitch, less pressure...probably a combination of things including the fact that our opponents suffer the same way at home as we do I'd imagine...but you can't tell me that a bunch of old duffers who give abuse to all and sundry at matches is a legitimate reason for any players lack of form. Every crowd has them, every team has them, they are not unique to us and they are part and parcel of the game which every player becomes accustomed to as they've been playing since they were kids. As an ex-pro I'm pretty sure that the likes of Blair will confirm that.

There is no such thing as an East Stand boo-boy, nor a Frank Beattie Stand boo-boy for that matter, its an urban myth created by quick to judge journos who love to assign labels to things they clearly don't understand. Fans just react to what they see, or more to the point what they think they see. What you probably didn't clock if you watched the Celtic game on the TV was 99% of the Killie fans in the East Stand holding back to applaud the players off the park for their efforts, despite every single one of them feeling gutted about the final result...did we read about that in the press or see it on the telly? Of course not, that doesn't fit the stereotype.

For the record I'm a huge fan (literally) of Slater and I really hope that he signs a new deal and wins his place back in the team, which I am sure he will. Faubert looks like he could be a match winner as well and I'm just loving the fact that we suddenly have options in that area as opposed to just having to make do with whoever is available, it should keep them on their toes for sure and create some much needed competition for places in the squad. I can think of a helluva lot more things to argue about on here...and let's try and stick to the subject matter and stop with the point scoring...it is possible to disagree with someone without disparaging their personality.

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Regarding the "East Stand Boo Boys", have you ever watched kids football? Some of the abuse I've seen parents handing out to seven year olds is grounds for child abuse proceedings.

I think anybody who makes it to pro level is probably well used to an earful of "encouragement" they could live without. I'm not saying it's helpful or right and I totally disagree with the idea that after you've paid your money you're entitled to shout what you want, I'm just saying its impact may be over estimated.

 

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I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this Baz, as a former East stand patron, I'm well aware of how unforgiving some people are on our own players from that stand. I've seen our own players booed onto the pitch ffs. Does it affect the players, who knows, you'd have to ask them, but it can't be helping. I'm sure some players thrive on being booed, usually by the opposition, but it has to get to you when it's coming from your own. I'd hold up Gary Harkins ( if I was strong enough) as evidence for the prosecution. Ineffectual throughout most of his games as Rugby Park, routinely booed by the East stand, comes back with other teams and destroys us while being booed. 

I'm also well aware of how the media likes to portray us and how things which don't fit the stereotype are swept under the carpet. Some of my fondest memories have been in that stand. Friday night game against Hibs, Kaiserslautern at home, scum in the cup etc, immediately spring to mind, but I hardly venture over there now. It's just too depressing. Tbf the whole Rugby Park experience leaves me cold now, I wouldn't be surprised if the players felt the same. 

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16 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

Regarding the "East Stand Boo Boys", have you ever watched kids football? Some of the abuse I've seen parents handing out to seven year olds is grounds for child abuse proceedings.

I think anybody who makes it to pro level is probably well used to an earful of "encouragement" they could live without. I'm not saying it's helpful or right and I totally disagree with the idea that after you've paid your money you're entitled to shout what you want, I'm just saying its impact may be over estimated.

 

Have you read any of Ryan O'Leary's later interviews? I'd suggest being berated didn't have a positive impact on his career, and it would be naive to think he is the only one to have suffered with depression and confidence issues. 

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I can't really recall Harkins being boo'd as a Killie player. His attitude did stink a bit though, and led to bust ups with coaching staff. If anything, the fans were routing for him as he clearly had class but just didn't show it except in glimpses. Maybe he shouldn't have left Dundee in the first place?

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2 hours ago, Zorro said:

Have you read any of Ryan O'Leary's later interviews? I'd suggest being berated didn't have a positive impact on his career, and it would be naive to think he is the only one to have suffered with depression and confidence issues. 

"I'm just saying its impact may be over estimated".

Or not ........  depending on the individual involved.

As I said, in my original post it's not big and it's not clever but in my experience, like Baz, I really, really don't think our fans are any better or worse than any others. I have been on Jambo's Kickback and some of the abuse they give their own players is eye watering.

As for negativity I don't thing it's source is in the East Stand but I'm pretty sure you can see it from there at most games.

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6 hours ago, Zorro said:

Two things. I will have seen more of the play watching the game at home, than you will have in the stand. It's human nature to follow the ball at the match, whereas at home you're shown the wider picture, and endless replays.

If you'd watched the game at home, you'd have noticed Faubert was only effective in one third of the field. He doesn't have the legs to get up and down the pitch. That's fine against Celtic, where we sit in, but in games like the Ross County or Hearts game, where we are at least expected to make a game of it, it leaves our forwards without support and our defence without cover as he lumbers about. That's why it will be a big mistake to play him at Firhill. Patrick's movement and pace will be a handful for us with eleven players. Carrying him will be too much. 

Secondly. I'm not convinced by Clarks judgement in training either. C'mon playing two players out of position because Smith is injured, Tope played as a striker, and if he thinks Ashcroft is the answer, I don't even want to know what he thinks the question is. That bomb scare would have rightfully given away another penalty if Scottish refs were half competent. The 5-1 game against United should have been his last in professional football. And yes, I was at that match. 

Ps some of Slaters best football has been since Xmas. Rangers away (watched it on TVs), St Johnstone in the cup (went to game)Motherwell away (went to game). Wait I'm starting to see a pattern, do you think he plays better away from the East stand boo boys? 

Once again, I completely disagree.

When you watch the game on the TV, you'll see all the highlights, umpteen replays and whatever the camera picks up within a 30 yard radius.

You don't see anything like the same as you see in a ground. If you did, international managers and club officials of future opponents would just stay in and watch matches with a beer, notepad and their feet up. Perhaps a more appropriate stadium would have been that you don't see more of the play at a stadium which I would imagine is more so the case after your comments regarding Slater vs Faubert.

Others have picked holes in your argument re boo boys at Rugby Park so no need for me continue on those points. In fact only thing we agree on is Lee Ashcroft's status at the club!

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1 hour ago, Bullitt said:

Once again, I completely disagree.

When you watch the game on the TV, you'll see all the highlights, umpteen replays and whatever the camera picks up within a 30 yard radius.

You don't see anything like the same as you see in a ground. If you did, international managers and club officials of future opponents would just stay in and watch matches with a beer, notepad and their feet up. Perhaps a more appropriate stadium would have been that you don't see more of the play at a stadium which I would imagine is more so the case after your comments regarding Slater vs Faubert.

Others have picked holes in your argument re boo boys at Rugby Park so no need for me continue on those points. In fact only thing we agree on is Lee Ashcroft's status at the club!

You are aware most clubs use video analysis now? This isn't the 1960's. Managers only go to watch their opponents to keep the Luddites quiet, to get away from the wife, and to indulge in the free hospitality. 

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9 hours ago, Zorro said:

Have you read any of Ryan O'Leary's later interviews? I'd suggest being berated didn't have a positive impact on his career, and it would be naive to think he is the only one to have suffered with depression and confidence issues. 

Sorry, but you can't blame coaches for Ryan's depression! That is unfair on both the coaches and Ryan. These things happen. Depression can be hereditary. I'm just happy that Ryan seems to be enjoying life in America. Go Ryan! Make the most of your life regardless of what is thrown at you. Ryan has shown that.

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1 hour ago, killieblues said:

Sorry, but you can't blame coaches for Ryan's depression! That is unfair on both the coaches and Ryan. These things happen. Depression can be hereditary. I'm just happy that Ryan seems to be enjoying life in America. Go Ryan! Make the most of your life regardless of what is thrown at you. Ryan has shown that.

I respectfully suggest you do a wee bit research on Ryan's history with Jimmy Calderwood. It may change your mind. 

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Calamity Calderwood is a cretinous Neanderthal bully boy, he hunted Ryan from Aberdeen and simply bullied the guy here.  He had no idea how to address mental illness and simply reverted to the stereotypical alpha male response.

Sad as it definitely Utley in my opinion led to a worsening of Ryan's condition which eventually led to they guy jacking it in.

Lost opportunity for the player and the club. But glad he's seems to have sorted his situation so he's less ill now.

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8 hours ago, fraz65 said:

He wasn't very good before Calderwood arrived at the club so I'm not sure how much of an influence that episode had on his career. 

Calderwood also managed him at Aberdeen. That aside, I'd take him at his peak over any CB we currently have at the club. 

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When O'Leary was playing well he was absolutely good enough for us, sadly his confidence kept going and that was detrimental to his performances. I think it would be naive to underestimate the scale of the impact that Calderwood had on him, the guy was a bully and the fact he's sat out of work reflects that.

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6 hours ago, livvy said:

When O'Leary was playing well he was absolutely good enough for us, sadly his confidence kept going and that was detrimental to his performances. I think it would be naive to underestimate the scale of the impact that Calderwood had on him, the guy was a bully and the fact he's sat out of work reflects that.

That's not how I remember things. IIRC he was pretty much a fixture in the team for the beginning of the 2012-13 season, but turned down our contract offer around December. I think he was linked with a move to Hibs around this time and was phased out, before pretty much being reduced to sub appearances for the remainder of the season. Still played over 30 times for the club though.

I firmly believe Shiels unwillingness to play someone who wasn't committed to the club, rightly IMO, was just as big a factor in us missing out on the top six, as injuries to key players, transfers or rooting out the infamous coffee club. With O'Leary, Nelson, Momo, Harkins, Heffernan, Dayton, Kelly, Perez, Sheridan, Clingan, Kennedy, and Tesselaar available we were a match for most clubs. Without them we were a shadow of ourselves, even if some of us still recognised the importance of this period  in developing the Goslings. It's a scandal how their careers have panned out btw. Our ex-chairman and the last two managers must shoulder much of the blame for that.

Reading that list of players back, has really brought home how poor we've become in such a short period of time. Add in Bell, a fit Boyd, Fowler, and Pasca and I doubt any of our current crop would get anywhere near the team. MacDonald would be a decent replacement for either Letheren or Jaakkola on the bench, I suppose. 

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