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Say Bye - To a Killie Pie?


baz

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It says it all that while the team on the pitch are heading towards relegation - Our "board" are challenging Brownings for the rights to the Killie Pie.

What is the point in trying to maintain the rights for the name when after all is done and dusted, there are no fans to sell the Killie© merchandise too?

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At this rate we won't be getting 1500 fans. The club has been on a downward spiral for years; the blip was with Mixu and then Kenny when, as a fan I knew I could turn up with hope and anticipation that we could always do something in a game. I knew we'd be hot and cold but we had belief. Know the hope and anticipation has gone. The desire to go to a match has also almost disappeared too. I dread the 3 hour return trip for me to visit RP - I really don't like to pay to be depressed.

On the subject of Killie pies though - I can get them in a local Aldi here; if KFC are challenging Brownings and are going to replace it then that will go too....what a shambles!

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This thread is diverging into 2 topic - the running of the teabars and the rights to the term Killie Pie.

Of the first one, I understood Brownings won the contract in open tender and it was therefore the most commercially attractive at the time. Also, it was a bid that guaranteed the club cash regardless of sales/income - this risk lay with Brownings. If the contract has expired then the club have every right to seek the most commercially advantageous deal. But the rub, and there is always a rub where MJ is involved, the likelihood of the hotel being the right deal is more than suspect. Where are Mann & the others on this. They've admitted the golden handcuffs deal on the hospitality deal. Why get involved in another? Is this a compromise deal to lessen the effect of the hospitality deal? The decision makers need to be more transparent with the supporters. I won't hold my breath and the teabars will lose my custom.

With the Killie Pie, I can actually see the club's issue. Brownings have taken a product that was developed as part of their association with the club and are now selling it through major retailers. There's no question that it's Brownings' hard work, development & investment that has achieved this, but the green eyed monsters are looking for a slice of the pie. Would Brownings have done this had they not had their involvement with the club?

All that said, we all know John Gall is a dyed in the wool supporter who has often sponsored the club and club events - he couldn't be accused of not giving the club something back. By forcing this throw the club is in serious danger of wrecking this relationship. Cutting their nose to spite their face - it's the Killie Way.

 

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4 hours ago, Scooter said:

Is there anybody who can stand up to him?

I don't think there is now.

Our last chance was Bowie but he is complicit with everything he does, he may even be the instigator in some cases who knows.

 

Brownings could actually win a case imo, they were allowed to use the name to further their brand and may therefore be told they can keep it, or they may change it to The Kilmarnock Pie.

how many fans will be lost over this now Michael & Billy? not that you give a f**k

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still makes me chuckle thinking of that time the sunday post ran a story slagging off killie for making pies with welsh beef instead of ScottishxD. of course it was pointed out to them that it was the butcher that was called wales and not the beef, and they ran an apology hidden deep inside the next weeks issue. absolute joke of a newspaper

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34 minutes ago, bKb said:

I don't think there is now.

Our last chance was Bowie but he is complicit with everything he does, he may even be the instigator in some cases who knows.

 

Brownings could actually win a case imo, they were allowed to use the name to further their brand and may therefore be told they can keep it, or they may change it to The Kilmarnock Pie.

how many fans will be lost over this now Michael & Billy? not that you give a f**k

To be fair I don't think fat Billy would care where his pies came from, as long as he could force them over one at a time.

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Firstly let me say let's not got hung up on the Park Hotel doing the catering thing, while that was mentioned I doubt they would be that stupid and they can always change their mind and deny it was an option, although you can take nothing for granted with this lot. Secondly to whoever mentioned putting everything else on the back burner to concentrate on the situation we are in...the two go hand in hand, if you ignore one then the other will inevitably suffer. I can assure you I was there yesterday shouting on the team and have been at every game I could have been this season and that will continue, unless (and I said this before when we boycotted a few games years back) it is more beneficial to the club's future to do otherwise...as it stands at the moment boycotting will not achieve anything in my opinion. I absolutely encourage everyone to stick by the team and show their backing in the run in.

The catering should go out to tender, of course it should, and if we get better deals on offer then that should be weighed up against the advantages of sticking with Brownings, which is far more than just a financial consideration. All said and done and Brownings tender is well and truly beaten (which is highly doubtful, but not impossible) then it would be fair of the club to give the contract to someone else. Who makes the decision though? Can they be trusted that it is indeed the best move for the club or the best move for someone else? Is there more to this given that John Gall openly opposed MJ continuance as sole trader at the club than meets the eye? As far as I am aware the current deal involves the club receiving 40-50p per head for the match attendance regardless of what is sold in the tea bars. In effect we could have a crowd of 3,000 who buy nothing and Brownings would lose a fortune so its a real gamble on their part and bad service only costs them, not the club, although it would reflect on the club of course, the opposite way the positive press about the Killie Pie has.

The Killie Pie in its current guise is a Brownings product with our name on it and we have a fair amount of cheek claiming otherwise. It's like the town of Kendal claiming cash every time a baker or confectioner sells a mint cake. There are shops in the town (Killie Gold) etc. which are allowed to use the name Killie because no one would be stupid enough to try and enforce that trademark which someone has already pointed out previously. Killie is the nickname of the town, not just the football team, and we would do well to remember that. Maybe if the club gave more consideration to the town and its people as opposed to thinking about itself (I  say the club, you know what I mean) then the community which we belong to might consider coming back to support us. We alienate people at every turn and even the hard core are finding better things to do on a Saturday because they just don't feel a part of it any more and something major has to change in the way our club is run to change that.

I'm saying this today after what looks like a decent away point now that Hamilton have been towsed. I would be saying it had we won yesterday as well and probably if we had lost...although I would have thought twice about that as it looks like a reaction to a bad result which sadly seems to be the case with a lot of our fans...good result, everything is fine...bad result, board are all bastards. Sadly that's how football seems to work but we have to try and buck that and show some consistency in our message. The club is being run badly, nothing will change until MJ is not on that board and the unhealthy relationship with the hotel is severed completely...although its overdue a refurb so no doubt we'll be offered a share back for a discount price and we'll 'vote' to accept that. Okay my imagination is running away with me now, but this is how it is when so called business people with agendas other than the betterment of the club have total control and we can't do a damn thing to stop them.

I have a lot more to say, but the majority of it will fall on deaf ears and I'm preaching to the converted with far more who are just as scunnered as me but feel helpless because they have us tied up in knots and are leaving us with little or no options to effect change before what is fast looking like an inevitable cave-in. I want nothing more than for us to escape relegation and for Lee Clark to build a team we can enjoy watching home and away; I want nothing more than to have a board that we can get behind and TRUST to do the right thing for the club. We deserve better than this. We Are Killie.

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46 minutes ago, baz said:

The Killie Pie in its current guise is a Brownings product with our name on it and we have a fair amount of cheek claiming otherwise. It's like the town of Kendal claiming cash every time a baker or confectioner sells a mint cake. There are shops in the town (Killie Gold) etc. which are allowed to use the name Killie because no one would be stupid enough to try and enforce that trademark which someone has already pointed out previously. Killie is the nickname of the town, not just the football team, and we would do well to remember that. Maybe if the club gave more consideration to the town and its people as opposed to thinking about itself (I  say the club, you know what I mean) then the community which we belong to might consider coming back to support us. We alienate people at every turn and even the hard core are finding better things to do on a Saturday because they just don't feel a part of it any more and something major has to change in the way our club is run to change that.

Different things entirely. Kendal Mint Cake is so called based on geography - it originated there, but has no recognized recipe or trademark creator/owner and isn't liable for protected geographic status, so in essence the Kendal part is pretty meaningless - it may as well be simply Mint Cake. Not the case with the Killie Pie, which is name for the club (technically), not the town.

Trademark law is a lot more complex than you lay out here. As others have said, it is possible (and right) to trademark certain words and phrases in particular contexts. The club could never trademark the term "Killie" in general terms for, as you point out, the word is in common use as a shortening of Kilmarnock. Killie Gold is fine - there is no confusion there between the football club and a gold merchants operating in Kilmarnock - however if someone wanted to open a store called "Killie Football" and sell knock-off footy merchandise, that could cause confusion and the club would be well within their rights to use their particular Killie trademark shut that down. If the club own the trademark for Killie Pies, then the name is theirs, simple. Browning's may have done more to promote it and develop it, but they'd have done so knowing full well it was not "their" brand. 

A failure to protect trademarks, even if it seems like the "right" thing to do in the short term, can be disastrous in the long term.

(And I say all this without expressing an opinion on the rights and wrongs of changing the contract here, since it seems like failure to immediately leap in feet first onto MJ and BB's case qualifies for "happy clapper" status. No point getting worked up about rumor and hearsay.)

Edited by kev1869
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Was JG not given permission for a limited time to use the word "Killie" with reference to his pie? If that time is up then that's it.

However as Baz points out above, we have more to worry about at the moment. I genuinely think we will escape relegation this year, however, there needs to be major changes made to the club overall as we cannot sustain the current financial situation for much longer.

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When u have private investments this is what happens, granted Brownings have had the monopoly but they tendered and won the right to have it, no issues. I know the owner is a good killie fan but after the carry on with him trying to ban the European market  from the town centre it was clear profits come before community. The club feel they have the right to a word used in marketing so they are going to chase that. The very same situation with Bowie, he is also a business man involved in Killie for profit, he invested his lot and arguably getting a deserved slice of the hotel to see some return. It's not rocket science folks, these are business people!!! granted it could be argued that a more customer focused approach would help them be more successful but they have the same forgiving customers still handing over the dosh so it's still worth their while. 

 

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Alas if anybody thinks MJ will ever change they are deluded. He is what some would liken to an egomaniac.  Despot of a being who will only ever be removed if there was some sort of coup or US military involvement. 

Maybe we could have The Russians annex Killie as part of trying to retake Kadikoi post Crimean War and installing someone like a General to oversee the running of the club.

Or to go in a different direction  get Donald Trump to buy the club, rename  it Kilmarnock Trump FC and build a wall around MJ to stop him getting in (or out) That could be a vote winner for someone who is also an egomaniac but to a lesser extent..........obviously.

Or have Micahel O'Leary of Ryanair buy MJ out but have him so confused with the terms and conditions of the take over that it actually cost MJ money to sell his share....

Just some thoughts......

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47 minutes ago, kev1869 said:

Different things entirely. Kendal Mint Cake is so called based on geography - it originated there, but has no recognized recipe or trademark creator/owner and isn't liable for protected geographic status, so in essence the Kendal part is pretty meaningless - it may as well be simply Mint Cake. Not the case with the Killie Pie, which is name for the club (technically), not the town.

Trademark law is a lot more complex than you lay out here. As others have said, it is possible (and right) to trademark certain words and phrases in particular contexts. The club could never trademark the term "Killie" in general terms for, as you point out, the word is in common use as a shortening of Kilmarnock. Killie Gold is fine - there is no confusion there between the football club and a gold merchants operating in Kilmarnock - however if someone wanted to open a store called "Killie Football" and sell knock-off footy merchandise, that could cause confusion and the club would be well within their rights to use their particular Killie trademark shut that down. If the club own the trademark for Killie Pies, then the name is theirs, simple. Browning's may have done more to promote it and develop it, but they'd have done so knowing full well it was not "their" brand. 

A failure to protect trademarks, even if it seems like the "right" thing to do in the short term, can be disastrous in the long term.

(And I say all this without expressing an opinion on the rights and wrongs of changing the contract here, since it seems like failure to immediately leap in feet first onto MJ and BB's case qualifies for "happy clapper" status. No point getting worked up about rumor and hearsay.)

It was an analogy, probably not a good one but the point stands. The Killie Pies as pies, made in Killie, ergo they are by rights Killie Pies. Kilmarnock Football Club should not own the rights over the name Killie...that belongs to the town...that's based on geography as well. You are from Killie, so am I...are we to be disenfranchised of our heritage because someone wants to make a few bucks? The club don't own the tradmark for Killie Pies, just the trademark for Killie...and that has yet to be tested. When it is I maintain that we will look like plums and it will cost us to find out that tradmarking the name for anything other than football related reasons is trumpetry.

It's not rumour or hearsay, Brownings have been given notice, I'm not calling you a happy clapper or anything of the sort...I have duly given the board members credit whenever appropriate...and reserve the right to call them out when I think they are at it. The facts are that 9 times out of 10 they are making a pigs ear of stuff....that's not my fault. Do more things right, garner more praise.

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Everyone's assuming this is MJs doing - and quite probably is - but we're precluding the idea that maybe the rest of the board are complicit in these shenanigans too!

Would say as well that the Killie Pie was pretty famous and award-winning long before Brownings came in. I actually preferred them before. My dad also designed the nifty stripey cardboard sleeves they came in.B|

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6 hours ago, steve101 said:

I'd like to see the pies stay but - as with most club stalls around Scotland - there seems to be limited, if any, healthy options available to buy.

You should try being a veggie! Might start a blog following my adventures in macaroni pies across the nation.

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Regardlesss of the shoulds, or should nots, they do. And they weren't opposed at the time.

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00002401973  https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK0002184177A Beers etc.

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK0002184177B sports & foodstuffs etc.

 

The 1st one expires 2025. The other two are up for grabs in 2018. That'll be your next chance to oppose the IP.

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