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Indy Ref 2


Mclean07

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THIS ought to have been a time of hope for the SNP government and those in the wider Scottish independence movement. Instead, where there ought to have been optimism and a renewed sense of purpose there is now doubt. Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, will continue to proclaim her leading role in sowing the seeds of uncertainty among the Yes movement but she is deluding herself if she seriously believes this to be the case. Her party’s success in securing 13 seats at the General Election has been built on fear and loathing of others.

 

There is a reason why she is desperate to avoid a second referendum on Scottish independence: her party, devoid of anything resembling a policy, has gorged itself on Scotland’s constitutional uncertainty. Once this has been settled one way or another she knows her party will retreat to the margins of Scottish public life.

 

It’s astonishing that the SNP, which won a second successive (albeit reduced) overall majority in a UK election within three years, is still in hiding after the result. During the actual campaign the SNP danced to Ms Davidson’s single, grotesque tune and now in victory they have been cowed. In four successive national elections on either side of the Border (including the council votes) the SNP have gained huge margins of victory campaigning for a second referendum. Their justification for doing so was the threat of a hard Brexit to Scotland’s economy and the inhumanity of Theresa May’s implacable mission to punish the poor for the greed of the rich.

 

Downing Street is currently occupied by the most hapless Prime Minister in Britain’s history, the political equivalent of the walking dead. With every day that passes her chief opponent, Jeremy Corbyn, grows more statesmanlike and wise. The lies that were told about him before the election by the hard Right press and the insidious campaign to discredit him by Blairites in the Westminster LabourParty have evaporated. Mr Corbyn, not Mrs May, is now the de facto leader of the United Kingdom. This is a man who knows his time has come.

 

He has attained this status by refusing to compromise on values and policies which he knew to be morally right and which he knew would resonate with UK voters. He is everything that the current SNP isn’t: brave; sincere; visionary; clear-headed and possessing an ability to show leadership and good humour in the face of overwhelming adversity. In comparison the Scottish Government looks fearful; complacent; cautious and ambiguous. This is a party that is scared of its own shadow and as such it has become the weakest link in the movement for an independent Scotland.

 

It has retained power in Scotland over the last decade by posing as the party of fairness and equality in the face of the dastardly stratagems of Westminster’s reactionary elite. It was gifted 100,000 new members and more by the most incompetent executive the Labour Party in Scotland has ever had the misfortune to possess. The SNP has spent the last two years squandering them. Now they are returning to Labour in droves in the realisation the so-called Socialism of the SNP was a mirage. This party bangs on endlessly, like a drunkard in a phone box, about "standing up for Scotland" yet a pygmy in a ditch would outstretch them.

 

In its decade-long tenure pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds have found it more difficult to reach university. The yawning chasm which exists in attainment levels between schools in affluent neighbourhoods and those in poorer ones has never been reduced. Its commitment to the NHS is unquestionable but its craven attitude when confronted by the abject executive failure in our health service has been contemptible. “It’s worse in England,” they say like a child explaining a bad report card to his mum.

 

They couldn’t even help themselves to low-hanging fruit like the charitable status granted to private schools; radical land reform and procurement assistance to Scottish SMEs. Our judiciary is still a network of privilege and the old school tie and Police Scotland is still disfigured by poor leadership. During this time it was also revealed that almost a third of the party’s fabled 56 Westminster MPs had multiple homes. In Scotland only two types of people own more than one home: the very rich or an opportunistic few who seek to take advantage of this country’s lack of affordable housing. Guess which category these MPs fall into.

 

John Swinney’s long-awaited Education Governance Review unveiled on Thursday told you all you needed to know about this party. They spun it as the biggest shake-up in delivering education in Scotland since devolution: it was nothing of the sort. As usual with the SNP when faced with two options they chose the less radical one. Thus headteachers are being given control over teacher recruitment in their schools. So, how’s that going to work? Teachers and headteachers are still trying to work through the chaotic Curriculum for Excellence (a misnomer if ever there was one) and many are trying to cope with council cuts in school support staff. This added layer of administration will increase their burden. Parents would rather have seen school heads given the power to remove failing teachers.

 

In unveiling the governance review, Mr Swinney finally rejected proposals by the parents of St Joseph’s Catholic primary in Milngavie to save their 140-year-old primary school. In campaigning to keep it open they had offered the SNP a proposal which would have taken it out of local authority control and let it be run by a parents’ executive, but still within the state sector. It was fully costed and sought to maintain links to elderly and vulnerable members of the community through outreach initiatives.

 

Yet, after more than two years of being led up the garden path by Nicola Sturgeon and the Education Secretary, plus a veritable army of special advisers, the parents were told the school’s fate was sealed in a phone call by yet another civil servant. They had simply been played for political gain and so a small centre of educational excellence in Scottish and Catholic education faces an uphill struggle for survival.

 

This on the same day it was announced a wealthy funeral director whose personal abuse of the late-lamented Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy was an embarrassment is to become the new leader of the SNP’s Westminster group.

 

In the face of a chaotic and damaging Brexit conducted by the new Raving Loony Party, the case for an independent Scotland remains a strong one. The SNP though, have become its greatest liability.

 

Kevin McKenna 

                                 ******************************************************

 

Everythng I've ever said about the SNP over the last few years, but much better than I could ever express it. From cautious conservatism, to measuring everything against England, from health to education, from centralisation to my recent comments on Blackford. A devastating critique from a man who supports independence, and who is one of the biggest critics of Scottish Labour and the Tories. While I take seriously the criticism of Labour and agree with the comments on the Tories our resident zealots will no doubt find a way to discredit him, but for the sensible posters, this is a brilliant summary of the present day SNP. For those who genuinely want Independence I would advise you to take the blinkers off and start thinking hard. 

Edited by Mclean07
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I think the most damning bit of Kevin McKenna's article is what he said about the Tory "revival". Ruth Davidson lent heavily on spreading uncertainty to fuel it. She and the Tories have nothing positive to offer.

I know people from the fishing communities in the north east were voting to safeguard their jobs which they blame the EU for taking away. Sadly I don't think Brexit is going to fix this, any more than it was ever going to free up millions for the NHS but I don't blame them for believing the Brexiteers. 

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28 minutes ago, Sp3ckyh0td0g81 said:

Sturgeon due to make a statement on Indyref 2 at 2.30pm 

just heard on LBC. 

It has been put on hold for now.

No real alternative for the First Minister.

Like the PM, she took a gamble and asked the voters to back her and they didn't in sufficient numbers for her to risk another IndyRef any time soon.

She is a far smarter and capable SNP leader than they have probably ever had. I doubt her predecessor would have backed off like this.

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I think the SNP seriously jumped the starters gun announcing this last year - I'm not sure Sturgeon is as tactical a genius as Salmond!

Even if Sturgeon got her way and Scotland became independent - Brexit would still be a bigger issue in the history books.

Unlike in 2014, fact is Scottish independence is second fiddle to Brexit these days.

As we're a year on from the Brexit vote and no NOTHING about how or what Brexit will entail, it seems a reasonable position to now wait till the outcome of the Brexit negotiations before indulging in another referendum.

With the wafer thin majority in Westminster - who knows where we'll be in a few months.

Probably having another general election to procrastinate the masses from having any firm understanding of what, Brexit means Brexit, means.

The support for a second referendum is solid, but most sensible people would agree, best  parked for now,  given complete lack of progress in anyone having any firm understanding on Brexit in the last 12 months!

Edited by RAG
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The YES offering from 2014 won't do now the UK is leaving the EU, the worlds moved on.

For the YES movement to win they need to be in the UK single market and the EU single market.

They can only do this through, EFTA (or might be EEA) membership, where they can do a trade deal with the EU and UK.

Otherwise the argument will resort to a crude UK v EU single market tug of war, rather than keeping the freedoms in trade we enjoy at present.

Sounds simple but going forward, that could tip the argument.

But the SNP have played their hand already as staunchly pro EU - despite suggesting we should be more Norwegian through most of 2014.

A lot of the media claim the SNP are like New Labour. Were Sturgeon to abandon EU membership in favour of EFTA, I may be tempted to agree!!!

 

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The independence referendum in 2014 was divisive, regardless of what anyone say about how good natured it was. And no matter how much we like to think of ourselves as democratic, the Yessers still want out of the UK and that the Noers would all turn into Yessers, the Noers stupidly think the whole issue is going to go away and the yessers will just die or something.

Then having played with fire once and narrowly got away with his political life Cameron got the matches out again. The EU referendum in 2016 was even more divisive that indyref, regardless of what anyone say about how good natured it was. And no matter how much we like to think of ourselves as democratic, the Remainers still want to be in the EU and that the Brexiteers would all just grow up and become mature Europeans, the Brexiteers stupidly think we can leave the EU without any consequences, the whole issue is going to go away and the Remainers will just die or something.

I cant see how indyref2 can do anything to mend the festering sore that is Brexit. In fact I can't see anything the Brexiteers are doing or in fact could do that can heal the festering sore.

And by extension I can't see anything that Wee Roofie has brought or could bring to the table that can heal the festering sore of indyref. In fact she doesn't seem to care. Her political career seems to be built on poking at it. 

It may be that the rupturing boil of Brxit flushes Scotland out of the UK. 

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8 minutes ago, RAG said:

The YES offering from 2014 won't do now the UK is leaving the EU, the worlds moved on.

For the YES movement to win they need to be in the UK single market and the EU single market.

They can only do this through, EFTA (or might be EEA) membership, where they can do a trade deal with the EU and UK.

Otherwise the argument will resort to a crude UK v EU single market tug of war, rather than keeping the freedoms in trade we enjoy at present.

Sounds simple but going forward, that could tip the argument.

But the SNP have played their hand already as staunchly pro EU - despite suggesting we should be more Norwegian through most of 2014.

A lot of the media claim the SNP are like New Labour. Were Sturgeon to abandon EU membership in favour of EFTA, I may be tempted to agree!!!

 

No is screwed as well since one of its big selling points was "Say Yes to the EU and No to Independence".

That has backfired on them in the worst way!!

Say for arguments sake there is another Indy Ref in in 2022 we will be in a whole changed landscape and who knows what the "right thing" to do will be.

I made my call last time on what I felt was best for the future of my kids. I will do the same again next time, whenever it might be.

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1 hour ago, Sandman396 said:

It has been put on hold for now.

No real alternative for the First Minister.

Like the PM, she took a gamble and asked the voters to back her and they didn't in sufficient numbers for her to risk another IndyRef any time soon.

She is a far smarter and capable SNP leader than they have probably ever had. I doubt her predecessor would have backed off like this.

It hasn't been put on hold; the UK governments incompetence in formulating a coherent brexit strategy, means the timetable has been revised. The plan is still to have a referendum once the brexit negotiations are complete. This has been the plan since the uk voted to leave Europe. 

I also disagree that Sturgeon gambled and asked voters to back her. The Scottish unionist parties tried to make the Westminster elections a de facto referendum on whether there should be an independence referendum and they lost heavily. Sturgeon didn't need a mandate, she already had one from the Scottish parliament. 

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19 minutes ago, bute-killiefan said:

Noises I'm hearing from people I know in the wider Yes movement (Which seems to be trying harder to differentiate itself from the SNP recently) is that the arguments for a Yes vote are being discussed as we speak and will be prepared for the next referendum. Mistakes made in 2014 are being addressed

 

 

The Common Weal have done a lot of excellent work on addressing many of these mistakes. Well worth a read if you're into that kind of thing. 

Edited by Zorro
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4 minutes ago, bute-killiefan said:

They should be allowed to lead the Yes movement as a whole next time

It's an interesting idea. Some people really struggled to understand the SNP might not be in power for long after independence, so their white paper was only a starting point rather than the destination. It would also nullify all the #snpbad propaganda, but I'm not sure how it would work in practice. 

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4 hours ago, RAG said:

I think the SNP seriously jumped the starters gun announcing this last year - I'm not sure Sturgeon is as tactical a genius as Salmond!

I think she listened to him too much. Salmond was very vocal about going for an almost immediate referendum. I got the impression he was desperate to get an independence vote through before he gets too old for frontline politics.

His impatience may have helped lose him his Westminster seat.

 

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8 minutes ago, Fankle said:

I think she listened to him too much. Salmond was very vocal about going for an almost immediate referendum. I got the impression he was desperate to get an independence vote through before he gets too old for frontline politics.

His impatience may have helped lose him his Westminster seat.

 

I formed the impression it was Salmond pushing for another vote. Thing is, the vote he organised was much closer than he ever thought it would be. So his logic goes that a vote starting at 50-50 , the Nats. should easily get a majority.

The thing is nobody opposed the last vote because nobody really thought he could win. Now the unionists are coming to terms with the fact independence could actually happen they are reacting to it quite aggressively.

I am of the view that eventually the unionists will see that benefits of The Union are all in peoples memories and that Post Thatcher, in every man for themselves, contracts to the lowest bidder Britain, there is no real tangible benefit to being part of the UK. Wee Roofie has eff all to offer except she is against a vote for independence. she doesn't believe Brexit is going to help anybody but her career path dictates she has to say its a good idea. This Bexit nonsense may just be what it takes to flush this notion to the surface in enough peoples minds to make Independence a reality.

 

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1 hour ago, Fankle said:

I think she listened to him too much. Salmond was very vocal about going for an almost immediate referendum. I got the impression he was desperate to get an independence vote through before he gets too old for frontline politics.

His impatience may have helped lose him his Westminster seat.

Possibly, but remember Salmond had an 18month timetable for an indy Scotland being set up from scratch!

Salmond couldn't have foreseen a year ago, just how little progress the Tories would have made on Brexit.

Even to the extent of calling a general election, to distract from their lack of progress / hopeless negotiating position.

Salmond also lost his father during the campaign and much as the Tories did well targeting the seat, I'd dare say with better luck in the next campaign, is a good chance he'll be back.

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19 hours ago, Zorro said:

It hasn't been put on hold; the UK governments incompetence in formulating a coherent brexit strategy, means the timetable has been revised. The plan is still to have a referendum once the brexit negotiations are complete. This has been the plan since the uk voted to leave Europe. 

I also disagree that Sturgeon gambled and asked voters to back her. The Scottish unionist parties tried to make the Westminster elections a de facto referendum on whether there should be an independence referendum and they lost heavily. Sturgeon didn't need a mandate, she already had one from the Scottish parliament. 

It hasn't been put on hold, sandman. She didn't gamble, sandman. She didn't need a mandate sandman. They're never wrong, sandman.......

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1 minute ago, Mclean07 said:

It hasn't been put on hold, sandman. She didn't gamble, sandman. She didn't need a mandate sandman. They're never wrong, sandman.......

It's not often you get something right, but credit where it's due, you've finally managed to understand the basic facts. 

And speaking of giving credit where it's due- Corbyn gave May a right shoeing at PMQ's there, that must piss you right off. 

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It aint working anywhere else but in Scotland the Tories seem to be very successfully deflecting attention from their own multiple clusterfucs by pointing at the SNP and shouting No to Indyref2.

OK the SNP got a little too enthusiastic about indyref2 after getting shut out of the Brexit deal. Now they have rowed back from it a bit. Still the Tories cant point to anything +ve about their agenda as they seem to be making it up as they go but all wee Roofie has to do is stand up an Holyrood and chant "No to Indyref2" to give the tabloid and BBC editors an orgasm. Her leader has already said "No to Indyref2" so where is the scrutiny of the EU farming payments, the alternative to the SNPs disastrous education policy? Nope all her and Wee Kez need to do is just keep canting No to Indyref2.  

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16 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

Nope all her and Wee Kez need to do is just keep chanting No to Indyref2.  

In fairness, chanting "No Surrender" has done it for the unionists for about a century in Northern Ireland.

Is obvious unionists would follow a similar parroted mantra of "No (to whatever)" in defence of the union in Scotland.

It's what unionists in the UK do.

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16 minutes ago, RAG said:

In fairness, chanting "No Surrender" has done it for the unionists for about a century in Northern Ireland.

Is obvious unionists would follow a similar parroted mantra of "No (to whatever)" in defence of the union in Scotland.

It's what unionists in the UK do.

No Surrender would win the Tories a lot of votes in Scotland, especially with their new alliance with the DUP.

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7 minutes ago, Prahakillie said:

No Surrender would win the Tories a lot of votes in Scotland, especially with their new alliance with the DUP.

They already have the No to Indyref line up here.

Cleverly adapted in my opinion from the NI version.

Not suggesting sectarian connotations or background are in any way the same, but the similarity in unionist slogans (and success of Tories in adopting them) is interesting.

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