Well somebody's got to pay for the DUP deal

[RAG]

58 minutes ago, Zorro said:

The answer to improving life expectancy has and always will be more money to reduce inequality. The questions I would ask are: is there a genuine desire to find that money, and is there any point in improving life expectancy without making a similar improvement on life quality?

Quality of Life won't improve and nor will life expectancy. QoL won't cos of wage stagnation, increasing cost of living and lower pensions among the next generation of pensioners compared to last. Same with life expectancy.

Cause: Austerity.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/18/austerity-cuts-life-expectancy

It's doubly bad in long term, as pensioners have seen incomes rise 30% since 2009, yet young families with kids 25-34 have seen their incomes flatline in same period.

So more kids are being brought up in increasing inequality, problems stored for later on, which we won't fully understand till they hit adulthood and can rack up 50 grand student debts for jobs on average wages.

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by RAG

[Mclean07]

51 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I think you actually believe that. Then again, you support bombing babies. In fact, you were moaning that the UK don't bomb enough not long ago.

Such a liberal, socialist thinking party are Labour. They really are.

 

Did the SNP change the tuition fees system, introduced by Lib/ Lab to benefit better off families at the expense of the poor, yes or no? I suspect you haven't a clue.

You can answer that comment and then dig out he comments where I have consistently said I opposed the Iraq war, instead of making things up.

[Mclean07]

I don't only believe it, I know SNP talk left and act right. Do a bit of research and you'll find any independent analysis proves it. Anyone with any political nous knows they mirror new labour in many ways with their cautious approach. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Mclean07

[gdevoy]

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

My wife is a nurse and in her experience there's a spike in elderly people being admitted around every holiday and every single Friday. Increased confusion and reduced mobility are the usual "symptoms".  These patients will be in hospitals for weeks/months while they're assessed for capacity and wellbeing, packages of care organised, nursing/care homes sought, or discharged back home with no interventions having taken place or being provided. 

A growing elderly population with a younger generation brought up to think it's everyman for themselves, is the elephant in the room nobody wants to address. Nobody has the time or inclination to look after granny, but they want the best of care for her; as long as they don't have to pay for it and it won't adversely effect their inheritance. G.P's who are so tired and swamped by their mon-fri workload that they send patients to hospitals because they simply can't face a weekend of calls about someone's granny's latest urine infection. 

The answer to improving life expectancy has and always will be more money to reduce inequality. The questions I would ask are: is there a genuine desire to find that money, and is there any point in improving life expectancy without making a similar improvement on life quality?

I think you are describing a genuine issue of as perceived through the demands put on the NHS. (These demands on the NHS are leading to a series of other issues lack of funding, lack of resources and lack of capacity).

However I think your diagnosis of selfish, greedy offspring is an emotional response to a fairly complex problem. People have no suddenly become any more selfish or greedy than they were 60 years ago. However the world has changed beyond all recognition in that time and it is causing some quite difficult to resolve problems,

1) People now are expected to move 100s of miles away from their family home to find work. (Part of Thatches "on your bike for a job" New World.)
2) Women are no longer going to accept "a caring role" as their career and expect to be at a place of work 8 hours a day. (Its called equality.)
3) The NHS has been massively successful in preventing major organ failure and death but is no help with quality of life issues such as mobility and mental acuity. So hospital admission wards are full of the confused and immobile elderly.)

I have no clue how best to handle this situation but what I am sure of is that stopping young fit people from coming to work here from Eastern Europe is not the answer.

     

[Mcilroy56]

8 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

I don't only believe it, I know SNP talk left and act right. Do a bit of research and you'll find any independent analysis proves it. Anyone with any political nous knows they mirror new labour in many ways with their cautious approach. 

Would that be the same New Labour that you have voted for the past 20 years? Pot Kettle me thinks my chap

[Mclean07]

8 hours ago, Mcilroy56 said:

Would that be the same New Labour that you have voted for the past 20 years? Pot Kettle me thinks my chap

Yes, but the big difference is I don't claim they were something they weren't, unlike the SNP supporters. 

[Zorro]

19 hours ago, gdevoy said:

I think you are describing a genuine issue of as perceived through the demands put on the NHS. (These demands on the NHS are leading to a series of other issues lack of funding, lack of resources and lack of capacity).

However I think your diagnosis of selfish, greedy offspring is an emotional response to a fairly complex problem. People have no suddenly become any more selfish or greedy than they were 60 years ago. However the world has changed beyond all recognition in that time and it is causing some quite difficult to resolve problems,

I wouldn't say people have suddenly become more selfish, I'd say it began with Labour's incompetence and treachery allowing Margaret Thatcher in. Community spirit was destroyed, council housing stock sold off , care homes quietly joined them; greed is good was the motto of the moment. You only have to look at how many relatively poor people vote Tory because they're convinced their lives are s**t due to scroungers and immigrants to see the lack of unity in the uk. 

Quote

1) People now are expected to move 100s of miles away from their family home to find work. (Part of Thatches "on your bike for a job" New World.)
2) Women are no longer going to accept "a caring role" as their career and expect to be at a place of work 8 hours a day. (Its called equality.)
3) The NHS has been massively successful in preventing major organ failure and death but is no help with quality of life issues such as mobility and mental acuity. So hospital admission wards are full of the confused and immobile elderly.)

1. Yes people do have to move to work, but  I'd suggest that's a very small percentage of the problem. The stories I hear are of families unable to attend case conferences until weeks later because they're away on holiday. The same patients being re-admitted time after time (often only within days of being discharged home on the maximum package of care) because "mum's not coping at home", but she wants to " try one more time", before going into a care home. "I promised mum, I wouldn't put her in a home". 

2. Most of the hospitals and care homes are staffed in the main by women. The problem isn't women don't want a caring role. The problem is they can't afford it. I'm willing to bet many would jump at the chance to be paid a living wage and granted the leave to look after an ailing relative at home. Unfortunately business comes first, and "care" homes are the most disgusting example of capitalism I can imagine. 

3. That's simply not true. NHS hospitals have a very high success rate in improving mobility; through a mixture of physiotherapy and providing mobility aids. The most common cause of confusion is urine infections which are quickly cleared up with antibiotics. The problem is families are often less than honest in their judgement of the patients baseline; partially through fear of something going wrong when they get home and partially through fear of being lumbered with them. 

People need to understand hospitals aren't good places for the elderly to be. They will very quickly become institutionalised, they are more likely to pick up infections and there aren't enough staff trained to give them the proper support they need. You will do your parents more harm than good by leaving them in hospital.

 

Quote

I have no clue how best to handle this situation but what I am sure of is that stopping young fit people from coming to work here from Eastern Europe is not the answer.

     

The reintroduction of public sector care homes would be a good place to start. An honest discussion on our expectations v the cost we're willing to pay via taxation would be a good place to end. I agree stopping immigration isn't the answer though. 

[gdevoy]

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

I wouldn't say people have suddenly become more selfish, I'd say it began with Labour's incompetence and treachery allowing Margaret Thatcher in. Community spirit was destroyed, council housing stock sold off , care homes quietly joined them; greed is good was the motto of the moment. You only have to look at how many relatively poor people vote Tory because they're convinced their lives are s**t due to scroungers and immigrants to see the lack of unity in the uk. 

I really do almost choke listening to the Tories complaining about "the housing crisis". The inevitable result of Thatcher's social revolution "Right to Buy" policy. I am further driven mental by folks on low incomes having their frustrations directed against a handful of "benefits scroungers" costing the exchequer what is a pocket full of loose change in real terms while the country loses billions upon bhillons in unpaid tax to the super rich.

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

The same patients being re-admitted time after time (often only within days of being discharged home on the maximum package of care) because "mum's not coping at home", but she wants to " try one more time", before going into a care home. "I promised mum, I wouldn't put her in a home". 

If you have been the position of having to accept a parent can't cope despite their passionate pleas to the contrary and how being in a care home would be worse than death itself you would perhaps have a little more empathy here.

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

2. Most of the hospitals and care homes are staffed in the main by women. The problem isn't women don't want a caring role. The problem is they can't afford it. I'm willing to bet many would jump at the chance to be paid a living wage and granted the leave to look after an ailing relative at home. Unfortunately business comes first, and "care" homes are the most disgusting example of capitalism I can imagine. 

Fair point. Like all of the best things in life I think this was a concept imported from the good ol US of A. Yup the government should be dealing with this and everybody would just have to pay more tax. Not a popular message with capitalists.

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

3. That's simply not true. NHS hospitals have a very high success rate in improving mobility; through a mixture of physiotherapy and providing mobility aids. The most common cause of confusion is urine infections which are quickly cleared up with antibiotics. The problem is families are often less than honest in their judgement of the patients baseline; partially through fear of something going wrong when they get home and partially through fear of being lumbered with them. 

People need to understand hospitals aren't good places for the elderly to be. They will very quickly become institutionalised, they are more likely to pick up infections and there aren't enough staff trained to give them the proper support they need. You will do your parents more harm than good by leaving them in hospital.

There is no known cure for arthritis which is a widespread degenerative disease very common in older people. Eventually it can leave the sufferer completely unable to care for themselves. I have seen the effects of a kidney infection in my dad and you are right with the right treatment he was back on his feet and sharp as a tack in no time. However my mum has dementia. Again there is no known cure for dementia which is a widespread degenerative disease very common in older people. Eventually it can leave the sufferer completely unable to care for themselves.

In my experience, very few people want to see their parents long term in a hospital and hospitals are now very adept at resolving elderly "bed blockers". However this is just moving the problem elsewhere. 

[Zorro]

2 hours ago, gdevoy said:

I really do almost choke listening to the Tories complaining about "the housing crisis". The inevitable result of Thatcher's social revolution "Right to Buy" policy. I am further driven mental by folks on low incomes having their frustrations directed against a handful of "benefits scroungers" costing the exchequer what is a pocket full of loose change in real terms while the country loses billions upon bhillons in unpaid tax to the super rich.

Labour don't deserve to get off scot-free here either. There record on restocking the public sector housing stock was disgusting. Especially during Blair/Brown's time at the helm. I suppose that's the consequence of having an economy built on London's property bubble. They can't risk doing anything that puts many home owners into negative equity. 

Quote

If you have been the position of having to accept a parent can't cope despite their passionate pleas to the contrary and how being in a care home would be worse than death itself you would perhaps have a little more empathy here.

If you had been in the position of watching a patient bleed out on a trolley in a corridor, having to tell their relatives they are dead, but they can't see them because you're still trying to locate a free bed, to clean them up in, and that they'll only have a limited time to see them before they're moved to a morgue, maybe you'd embarrassed that doctors and nurses are being put in these positions more often than they should. 

My wife works on a 28 bed renal ward, last Friday night they had 6 renal patients, the rest were MOE (medicine of the elderly). These are specialist nurses being asked to do a job they aren't trained for due to site capacity issues. 

Quote

Fair point. Like all of the best things in life I think this was a concept imported from the good ol US of A. Yup the government should be dealing with this and everybody would just have to pay more tax. Not a popular message with capitalists.

Amen brother. 

Quote

There is no known cure for arthritis which is a widespread degenerative disease very common in older people. Eventually it can leave the sufferer completely unable to care for themselves. I have seen the effects of a kidney infection in my dad and you are right with the right treatment he was back on his feet and sharp as a tack in no time. However my mum has dementia. Again there is no known cure for dementia which is a widespread degenerative disease very common in older people. Eventually it can leave the sufferer completely unable to care for themselves.

In my experience, very few people want to see their parents long term in a hospital and hospitals are now very adept at resolving elderly "bed blockers". However this is just moving the problem elsewhere. 

There are less than 10 beds in NHS Lothian designated as rheumatology beds. Unless you're going in with septic arthritis; the chances of an arthritic patient getting one of these beds before someone with lupus or ankylosing spondylitis are so insignificant that they are hardly worth considering. However rheumatology patients will routinely be discharged early to make way for MOE patients. 

I'm sorry to hear your mum has dementia, it's a terrible disease and one I wish no family should have to deal with. As you'll no doubt be aware, dementia patients don't cope well with changes to their routine or surroundings. NHS fife have done some pioneering and award winning work on creating dementia wards. However even their creative approach has its challenges. One being families are quite happy to leave their parents in these quality surrounding, with highly qualified staff. Families are well aware of their rights and are quite adept at manipulating the situation to keep their loved ones in these wards as long as possible. 

Sundowning is another challenge. Many of these patients only settle in their own surroundings. The sooner they are moved to somewhere somewhat familiar, the less extreme their symptoms are likely to be. 

My wife's personal bug bear is the standard of care given by care/nursing homes. I'm not sure if you're aware of the difference between the two but basically a nursing home must have registered nurses on duty at all times, supposedly so they can deal with more complex patients. Despite this, patients are often admitted from nursing homes due to pressure ulcers, dehydration or urine infections. The first one can be avoided with the right equipment and regular positional changes, the other two can be fixed with IV fluids and antibiotics. People are paying five star prices to stay in these places and are receiving 3rd rate care. This is what happens when profit comes before dignity. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Zorro

[Mcilroy56]

7 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Yes, but the big difference is I don't claim they were something they weren't, unlike the SNP supporters. 

If you don't claim they were something they weren't, did you just ride the wave because "your party" were in power and were happy to claim that victory despite them alienating the vast majority of you socialist values? To me that is hypocritical. You could have chosen other parties that were more aligned to your beliefs. I don't see another labour leader with the values like Corbyn emerging in the next 5 years, the right wing of the party will regain control before the next GE as JC will be considered too old by that time. Then you will be back to square 1 and continue your hopeless waste of a vote whilst getting off on rubbishing your  native land and those who try in vain to improve it. 

Long live the Union, honestly f**k it cause it's run its course and despite your long winded rants about SNP bad, Scotland will continue to be downtrodden by the English elite as long as you and your ilk are around.

[Mclean07]

8 minutes ago, Mcilroy56 said:

If you don't claim they were something they weren't, did you just ride the wave because "your party" were in power and were happy to claim that victory despite them alienating the vast majority of you socialist values? To me that is hypocritical. You could have chosen other parties that were more aligned to your beliefs. I don't see another labour leader with the values like Corbyn emerging in the next 5 years, the right wing of the party will regain control before the next GE as JC will be considered too old by that time. Then you will be back to square 1 and continue your hopeless waste of a vote whilst getting off on rubbishing your  native land and those who try in vain to improve it. 

Long live the Union, honestly f**k it cause it's run its course and despite your long winded rants about SNP bad, Scotland will continue to be downtrodden by the English elite as long as you and your ilk are around.

Do you know what, B, I typed half of a long reply to you, because you misunderstand me on quite a few levels, but I deleted it because it's impossible to get some points across on this medium. If you ever want to have a coffee U2U me and we can probably put most stuff to bed and move on. 

[Mcilroy56]

29 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

Do you know what, B, I typed half of a long reply to you, because you misunderstand me on quite a few levels, but I deleted it because it's impossible to get some points across on this medium. If you ever want to have a coffee U2U me and we can probably put most stuff to bed and move on. 

Nah I'll pass on that thanks

[bute-killiefan]

6 hours ago, Mcilroy56 said:

Nah I'll pass on that thanks

What if he's paying? Free coffee man!!!!

[Zorro]

16 minutes ago, bute-killiefan said:

What if he's paying? Free coffee man!!!!

McLean's a Labour man so it would be PFI coffee. Nothing for either of them to pay now, but their kids will be paying for it for the next twenty years and the final cost will amount to the same as setting up a new Costa or Starbucks shop. Whatever you do @Mcilroy56, don't have a piece of cake. It could bankrupt the country. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Zorro

[bute-killiefan]

2 hours ago, Zorro said:

McLean's a Labour man so it would be PFI coffee. Nothing for either of them to pay now, but their kids will be paying for it for the next twenty years and the final cost will amount to the same as setting up a new Costa or Starbucks shop. Whatever you do @Mcilroy56, don't have a piece of cake. It could bankrupt the country. 

But SNP cut college tuition

[Zorro]

7 hours ago, bute-killiefan said:

But SNP cut college tuition

They act right and talk left or something like that too...

 

[bute-killiefan]

2 hours ago, Zorro said:

They act right and talk left or something like that too...

 

They don't speak French, so they let the funky music do the talkin'

[Zorro]

2 hours ago, bute-killiefan said:

They don't speak French, so they let the funky music do the talkin'

As the rhythm designed to bounce. What counts is that the rhymes designed to fill your mind.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Zorro