Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Bullitt

King Kenny Speaks!

Recommended Posts

david mcbeth    240

A bit too much history re-writing going on here.

We were already in transition when we missed out on top 6 because KS had "lost" some of the senior players, prima donnas or otherwise. We did not miss Top 6 because KS had been blooding too many boys - he did that after the split - and we were absolute cack tbh.

My impression was that missing out on top 6 that day really hurt and damaged KS personally at a level that showed how much he cared but perhaps at another level made him look weak and damaged. Our own pet shark from Ayr then finished him off, with his coveted SFA blazer in mind.

It is a moot point whether KS's plans for the future would have borne fruit. We will never know. But at least he had a plan unlike at least 3 of the 4 who followed.

  • Like 3
  • Red Card 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dan1el    58

I've mentioned on Twitter you can track the decline and our pathetic excuses for performances ever since Kenny left, sure we had ups & downs but he had a plan in place and a style of football.

Can you imagine any of the pathetic teams we've had since he left, believing we could win (and did) at Ibrox or Parkhead?

All hail the king!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
skygod    1412

Kenny has admitted that he allowed too many players to leave in the January window of the 2012/13 season - from memory, Nelson, Johnson, Kelly, Harkins and Boulding at least were allowed to leave. 

He also seemed to have a wilfully self-destructive streak at the time. His memory of his "Celtic are the monsters of Scottish football" is a little selective: it was made in the context that Celtic exerted undue influence over SFA disciplinary panels. 

Which was possibly true but it was unlikely to be well received by the SFA, with the result that not only was he given a four-match suspension but the club was charged with failing to control him. 

MJ could have supported him more but that would have had consequences not only on his own ambitions but on the club. 

There was only going to be one winner and it wasn''t KS although I was surprised at the time that he was sacked. 

It was almost as if he painted MJ into a corner, backing his judgement that MJ wouldn't sack him against the fans' wishes. 

He called it wrong. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gdevoy    238
15 minutes ago, Dan1el said:

Can you imagine any of the pathetic teams we've had since he left, believing we could win (and did) at Ibrox or Parkhead?

I always said he wisnae The Messiah but before Oldkillie consider repeating that one word respose, just consider your answer to the above.

He wisnae The Messiah but he was head and shoulders above any of the donkeys the club have employed subsequently to fill the position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gdevoy    238
2 minutes ago, skygod said:

He also seemed to have a wilfully self-destructive streak at the time. His memory of his "Celtic are the monsters of Scottish football" is a little selective: it was made in the context that Celtic exerted undue influence over SFA disciplinary panels. 

I would go further and say undue influence in every area. An unpalatable truth. Sadly until the SFA grow a set and face up to this Scottish football will be doomed to the terminal decline it finds itself in.

I'd have KS back tomorrow. Not as team coach perhaps but in a director of football / public relations / supporters liaison officer type roll. Monty works or the club, why not Kenny. He's got better contacts than anybody on our management team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
piffer    706

He lost too much quality after the league cup win.  Again in the January. Not just decent players but decent guys who set the right example. Harkins was a fud but Nelson, Johnson, Kelly were leaders on and off the park. 

In terms of building for the future playing the youngsters was correct although I personally felt he maybe wanted too many in the team at the same time. Certainly the next few managers benefitted from Muirhead, Kiltie, Ashcroft, Barbour, O'Hara, McKenzie and Slater getting that game time.

What was worrying were the signings he was looking at. Peter Murphy who didn't set the world on fire at Ayr. Although that statement does go out the window when we consider the cock ups on the transfer front of the next four managers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

I'd have KS back tomorrow. Not as team coach perhaps but in a director of football / public relations / supporters liaison officer type roll. Monty works or the club, why not Kenny. He's got better contacts than anybody on our management team.

I agree he'd be great as a sort of club ambassador.  His work ethic could also take a lot of pressure off the management team and even help the marketing bloke etc.  

Watching all the youth teams and reporting back to management team.

 Going round pubs drumming up support and handing out flyers.  His presence alone could drum up support for TiK.

Incidentally has he been made aware of TiK? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jamieboy    7
59 minutes ago, piffer said:

He lost too much quality after the league cup win.  Again in the January. Not just decent players but decent guys who set the right example. Harkins was a fud but Nelson, Johnson, Kelly were leaders on and off the park. 

In terms of building for the future playing the youngsters was correct although I personally felt he maybe wanted too many in the team at the same time. Certainly the next few managers benefitted from Muirhead, Kiltie, Ashcroft, Barbour, O'Hara, McKenzie and Slater getting that game time.

What was worrying were the signings he was looking at. Peter Murphy who didn't set the world on fire at Ayr. Although that statement does go out the window when we consider the cock ups on the transfer front of the next four managers.

On the subject of Peter Murphy Allan Johnston had him on trial and I believe he should have signed him. Did well in pre season and then never signed. As it was we went in to the first game of the season away to Aberdeen with half of the back 4 being Tesselaar and McKeown. Half of our back 4 couldn't defend! Was never going to bode well for Killie that. Murphy was a no frills defender (kinda similar to Frazer Wright) who didn't look out of place in our team in pre season imo. Rather have a Murphy than a Karleigh Osborne. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zorro    458
8 hours ago, david mcbeth said:

A bit too much history re-writing going on here.

We were already in transition when we missed out on top 6 because KS had "lost" some of the senior players, prima donnas or otherwise. We did not miss Top 6 because KS had been blooding too many boys - he did that after the split - and we were absolute cack tbh.

My impression was that missing out on top 6 that day really hurt and damaged KS personally at a level that showed how much he cared but perhaps at another level made him look weak and damaged. Our own pet shark from Ayr then finished him off, with his coveted SFA blazer in mind.

It is a moot point whether KS's plans for the future would have borne fruit. We will never know. But at least he had a plan unlike at least 3 of the 4 who followed.

I think if you asked KS the only regret he'd have, was bringing the experienced guys back in for the two games before the split, rather than the youngsters who'd got us into a position to make it. Barbour, Gros, O'Hara, Winchester, McKenzie, McKeown etc were getting plenty of game time prior to the split. Bringing Hay in and a clearly struggling Hefferman, along with the injury to Dayton at Ross County, took a lot of energy and movement out of the team. The Likes of Ashcroft, Johnston, Kiltie and Muirhead were only really introduced after the split. 

Unfortunately, most of these guys stalled under AJ, although I've watched Ashcroft a few times at Dunfermline and he looks better than most of our centre backs. O'Hara seems well regarded at Dundee, and Muirhead either has a fantastic agent or shows something anytime I'm not watching. Johnston looked poor at Raith (I think he's at Dumbarton now) and I'm not even sure if Winchester or Mckeown still play. 

Edited by Zorro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
skygod    1412
1 hour ago, Zorro said:

....I'm not even sure if Winchester McKeown still play.....

Winchester is still with Cliftonville. 

It lloks like McKeown is without a club since leaving Southport in the summer. 

And, because I know you like him, Conor Brennan is with Ballymena United.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bbk    148
On 13/09/2017 at 5:15 PM, Oldkillie said:

Fruitcake

There's only one fruitcake here and it sure isn't Kenny Shiels I would take him back tomorrow but I'm very biased in my opinion of the man as my forum sign in bbk means bring back Kenny he as has been said had his faults but his respect for killie fans was never in question and many of us had the same respect for him.It would have been nice to find out how some of the young players mentioned had progressed with us if he had stayed but Michael Johnston caved in to the demands of Peter Lawell of ceptic and the rest is unfortunately history.Why don't you do yourself a favour and watch our league cup win in 2012 and see how the man conducted himself with everything that was going on after that game I'm sure your opinion of him would be slightly different the man was sheer class!

  • Like 2
  • Back of the Net! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Zorro said:

The Likes of Ashcroft, Johnston, Kiltie and Muirhead were only really introduced after the split. 

Unfortunately, most of these guys stalled under AJ, although I've watched Ashcroft a few times at Dunfermline and he looks better than most of our centre backs. O'Hara seems well regarded at Dundee, and Muirhead either has a fantastic agent or shows something anytime I'm not watching. Johnston looked poor at Raith (I think he's at Dumbarton now) and I'm not even sure if Winchester or Mckeown still play. 

You're brave, talking Ashcroft and O'Hara up together on here. Usually talking just one of them up will bring an angry response from someone with a sarcastic 'Messi O'Hara' type comment. I think we should have kept both of them though.

Not totally convinced Shiels had a real plan in place for these guys but I'd like to think they would have got a potential chance to establish themselves at Killie without the likes of Waddington and Cobain being brought  in to take  their places.

Edited by BigRonFaeTheQueenVic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Zorro said:

I disagree that we were on the decline, in fact I'd say the preparation had begun to move us up a level. For many fans, SPL survival or scrapping into the top six had become the prize. I don't think that was enough for Kenny. He wanted to blood and battle harden as many of the kids as possible, because he knew how important they'd be if we were to start challenging regularly in cups and for European football. 

I think this is daft. The kids got a chance because injuries, loss of form, dressing room fall outs and players sold on decimated his options. You don't sign Borja Perez and Cilian Sheridan in August planning to have replaced them by April with a bunch of kids in my mind.

Edited by BigRonFaeTheQueenVic
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zorro    458
8 hours ago, BigRonFaeTheQueenVic said:

You're brave, talking Ashcroft and O'Hara up together on here. Usually talking just one of them up will bring an angry response from someone with a sarcastic 'Messi O'Hara' type comment. I think we should have kept both of them though.

Not totally convinced Shiels had a real plan in place for these guys but I'd like to think they would have got a potential chance to establish themselves at Killie without the likes of Waddington and Cobain being brought  in to take  their places.

I don't let the mob on here curtail my opinions; see any of my posts on MacDonald or Broadfoot for proof, most of them base their opinions on player ratings from FIFA17 or some misplaced religious intolerance. I try and look at the bigger picture. 

I'm going to disagree with a couple of your points; in this one and the second one I forgot to multiquote and as I'm too lazy to go back and fix, you'll just have to forgive me. "Not totally convinced Shiels had a plan...". Kenny spoke plenty of times about his desire to bring through a team made entirely from Killie. He even suggested one of his regrets was playing loan players in our cup win at the expense of homegrown ones. I've no doubt some of the players he picked would have fallen by the wayside, that's normal at every club, but I'm positive they'd have been given more chance to prove themselves with Shiels at the helm. 

"I think this is daft. The kids got the chance..." Kenny was never shy to pitch in the youths. In the early weeks of becoming permanent manager the likes of McKeown, Davidson, Gros, McKenzie had all played. Fisher, Agard(sp?) Jakkola(sp?) were playing when he was still caretaker. Looking at the subs bench later in tenure shows he was more than willing to park more experienced and higher paid players on the bench to give youths a chance. To my mind the only player he'd have played more if his hand hadn't been forced by injury is Danny Buijs. I think Kenny was a big fan of his simple style of play. 

  • Like 3
  • Red Card 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zorro said:

I'm going to disagree with a couple of your points; in this one and the second one I forgot to multiquote and as I'm too lazy to go back and fix, you'll just have to forgive me. "Not totally convinced Shiels had a plan...". Kenny spoke plenty of times about his desire to bring through a team made entirely from Killie. He even suggested one of his regrets was playing loan players in our cup win at the expense of homegrown ones. I've no doubt some of the players he picked would have fallen by the wayside, that's normal at every club, but I'm positive they'd have been given more chance to prove themselves with Shiels at the helm. 

It's telling that we've had 4 managers since, but it's Shiels that we all still talk about. I don't think any of us will ever have him 100% sussed but he gave us some  really interesting times.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zorro    458
31 minutes ago, BigRonFaeTheQueenVic said:

It's telling that we've had 4 managers since, but it's Shiels that we all still talk about. I don't think any of us will ever have him 100% sussed but he gave us some  really interesting times.

Even more telling is the way our two most recent cup winning teams are regarded IMO. The 97 team are regarded as legends, with Williamson seen as an average manager, in the right place at the right time. I can't remember any protests when he left for Hibs. A good chunk of us even scoffed at the idea it was a step up. 

Contrast this with the 2012 team. Can you imagine anyone looking to go to a "legends" dinner with Gordon, Harkins, Johnson, Kroca, Nelson, Sissoko or even Van Tornhout? Nah, me neither. However I'd pay money to listen to Shiels recite the phone book. 

  • Like 1
  • Red Card 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wrangodog    400
5 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Even more telling is the way our two most recent cup winning teams are regarded IMO. The 97 team are regarded as legends, with Williamson seen as an average manager, in the right place at the right time. I can't remember any protests when he left for Hibs. A good chunk of us even scoffed at the idea it was a step up. 

Contrast this with the 2012 team. Can you imagine anyone looking to go to a "legends" dinner with Gordon, Harkins, Johnson, Kroca, Nelson, Sissoko or even Van Tornhout? Nah, me neither. However I'd pay money to listen to Shiels recite the phone book. 

You could argue that both managers were in the right place at the right time. A lot has to do with personality, if you walked into a pub and Bobby was the only person there would you strike up a conversation ? Maybe, but you might be inclined to check out his mood first. Kenny on the other hand, would almost certainly strike up a conversation with you first.

I won't say one was better than the other. Bobby's team reduced me to tears of joy after the semi-final against Dundee Utd. Kenny's team gave me the best 45 minutes as a Killie fan since Eintracht with the 3-0 lead against Celtic. Kenny also performed a tactical masterclass in the League Cup Final, but equally, his teams were destroyed on more than one occasion by ordinary sides.

I also think Sissoko, Bell, Hay, Fowler, Van Tornhout, and Sheils, are Kilmarnock legends for their performance in 2012. Would I go to a dinner to celebrate their achievement ? Yes, I would.

  • Like 1
  • Red Card 1
  • Back of the Net! 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zorro    458
13 minutes ago, Wrangodog said:

You could argue that both managers were in the right place at the right time. A lot has to do with personality, if you walked into a pub and Bobby was the only person there would you strike up a conversation ? Maybe, but you might be inclined to check out his mood first. Kenny on the other hand, would almost certainly strike up a conversation with you first.

I won't say one was better than the other. Bobby's team reduced me to tears of joy after the semi-final against Dundee Utd. Kenny's team gave me the best 45 minutes as a Killie fan since Eintracht with the 3-0 lead against Celtic. Kenny also performed a tactical masterclass in the League Cup Final, but equally, his teams were destroyed on more than one occasion by ordinary sides.

I also think Sissoko, Bell, Hay, Fowler, Van Tornhout, and Sheils, are Kilmarnock legends for their performance in 2012. Would I go to a dinner to celebrate their achievement ? Yes, I would.

The only tears I had after the semifinal against United were tears of boredom. The replay was a different matter. :D

As for Kenny's team being taken apart, did you forget about Bobby's team at Stirling Albion or against Ayr? Those defeats didn't diminish anyone's liking for the players, but Bobby came in for pelters. I'd suggest that this had more to do with their influence on team matters rather their respective personalities. 

It's also hard to believe anyone would suggest Shiels was in the right place at the right time compared to Williamson. Williamson inherited a squad full of players bought for record fees. Shiels got to rummage in the bargain bin. Williamson took over when the club was still on an upswing; premier league football was still relatively new to us and this was reflected in our crowds and the backing the team received. Shiels got us on the way back down; dwindling crowds, infighting, cost-cutting.... Even looking at the teams they played, beating Falkirk shouldn't have come as a surprise, beating a treble chasing Celtic should have been a different matter. Looking at all the factors, the 2012 squad should be more fondly remembered, but it won't be.

 

  • Like 1
  • Red Card 1
  • Back of the Net! 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mogwai    198

I think the best time would have been instead of Clark (nothing against Lee Clark). I feel that with Kenny as manager, Lee would have learned far more.

Was not going to happen then, but if McCulloch goes, I'd hope he'd throw his hat in the ring.

What about a dream team of Kenny as DoF, Holt as manager and Fowler as Asst?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wrangodog    400
2 hours ago, Zorro said:

The only tears I had after the semifinal against United were tears of boredom. The replay was a different matter. :D

As for Kenny's team being taken apart, did you forget about Bobby's team at Stirling Albion or against Ayr? Those defeats didn't diminish anyone's liking for the players, but Bobby came in for pelters. I'd suggest that this had more to do with their influence on team matters rather their respective personalities. 

It's also hard to believe anyone would suggest Shiels was in the right place at the right time compared to Williamson. Williamson inherited a squad full of players bought for record fees. Shiels got to rummage in the bargain bin. Williamson took over when the club was still on an upswing; premier league football was still relatively new to us and this was reflected in our crowds and the backing the team received. Shiels got us on the way back down; dwindling crowds, infighting, cost-cutting.... Even looking at the teams they played, beating Falkirk shouldn't have come as a surprise, beating a treble chasing Celtic should have been a different matter. Looking at all the factors, the 2012 squad should be more fondly remembered, but it won't be.

 

Of course I meant the replay.

No I haven't forgotten the Stirling Albion game or the Ayr games, I was at them all. Williamson may have inherited a decent team but they were failing badly when he took over. He also brought Burke and Bagan into the side which gave us a decent mixture of youth and experience. 

Agreed the final against Falkirk wasn't exactly a triumph, but the Morton and Dundee Utd. games were tricky ties. The League Cup Final was the only difficult game the 2012 team had. Both managers served us well but their careers since haven't exactly been stellar although Kenny's does seem to be plagued by tragedy. I would welcome either back to Kilmarnock with open arms.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

The Killie Trust

KFC Supporters Association

Young Kilmarnock

FC Kilmarnock

Kilmarnock FC (Official)

×