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Dundee thread


skygod

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53 minutes ago, mitch14 said:

I can see the argument for that, it's the context of the thing that is worrying for me.

We made chances because Jones can run past folk and Erwin can win headers. That will happen whoever is the manager. That we didn't take them has lots to do with the organisation of the rest of the team and the training they are getting.

At least three chances today that needed squaring and we could have scored. I think it's more than individual errors, there isn't a system in place so the players now instinctively where they should be.

A small thing that stood out, but a telling one: when we had throw inside in our own half no-one had a clue what to do. Erwin wasn't coming in for the header. The midfield were hiding. It was just a mess. I think Greer and Findlay are getting a wee bit better at start moves, but the midfield has no idea.

Also, Dundee are crap. An even slightly better team and we would have been in a lot more trouble. I suppose you get close games with teams around you but we rarely felt like the home side. 

Players not knowing what to do doesn't come from th manager, that's just players being guff. Knowing how to take a throw in or when to square it is instinctive to a good player. Look at the quality of pass and finish from Roberts and Griffiths today. Hard to imagine Killie players doing that, and that isn't the manager to blame 

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1 hour ago, Dillinger said:

Don't think we were as bad as some making out. First 15 or so were a bit grim then we improved, Jones looking lively. We were the better team and looked decent on the front foot. 

Erwin showed some quality today, he brought the ball in well and showed a good first touch, from some poor service at times. 

He should have scored first half but hopefully that will come for him. 

Boyd did well when he came on, vital contribution to the equaliser and fluffed a put-your-house-on-it chance that I don't think was as easy as it looked, especially on his weaker side. 

Decent performances two weeks in a row, two points, hopefully build on it and get a positive result next week. 

Get over Jones he can only run 

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NOT GOOD ENOUGH LEE get your act together pdq or we are in grave danger of going down this year wtf were those free kicks supposed  to be in the first half? shocking are these players actually training properly because the drivel we are seeing week after week doesn't seem so four seasons of absolute s***e and every team who come to play us looking like they are going to turn us over Please get a grip before it's too late!!!

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5 hour round trip, frustrated to say the least, that said If offered a draw at half time would have taken it as I couldn't see how we were going to score. Pitch continues to deteriorate (in my opinion), the boys look totally uncomfortable playing on it, opposition appear to treat it as they hate it but if they win it is only possibly once a season they have to play on it. Can't understand how slow the surface is, especially when comparing it with the pitch Scotland recently played on in Luthiania which appeared really slick. As for the 'the miss'???? Rossco a season defining game!

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I'm sorry but Lee is not watching the same game as me. Tactically he appears to be a dinosaur - it's becoming clear that whatever Locke served up had his coach's full approval. He should be doing better with this squad - unlike Clark he was allowed to sign some players I'd actually heard of. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt but my patience is wearing thin. There's no sign of plan A let alone plan B...

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32 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Never had 3 passes together? Dundee played the better football?

Ok you don't like the manager but take the blinkers off , even that wee s**te McCann admitted they were lucky to get a point.

Only cos boyd missed a pinch mmm McCann compared to Jones night and day we havnt got the players we are going down and we will struggle in the championship Mark my words you get the blinkers off

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1 hour ago, Dillinger said:

Players not knowing what to do doesn't come from th manager, that's just players being guff. Knowing how to take a throw in or when to square it is instinctive to a good player. Look at the quality of pass and finish from Roberts and Griffiths today. Hard to imagine Killie players doing that, and that isn't the manager to blame 

I don't agree with that. Use Celtic as an example, they know it's all short passing so they organise for that. Players come close and make passing angles. We had some players positioning for a long ball and others going short. Which means the guys trying to build attacks don't know where to put the ball. It's something I remember Shiels talking about in one of his long interviews.

We had no end of long balls to Erwin in the first half when the midfield three were all sitting deep. He had no where to put the ball when he won it. We needed Frizzel sitting further forward - something he did better in the second half. 

The individual quality of the players is obviously an issue - passing and finishing would have made a difference to say - but a good manager compensates for the lack of quality. That's basically your job as a bottom six premiership manager.

I just don't see that the players have any sense of how they are supposed to attack (other than long ball when we try that). Others writing about us and pundits on the radio have been saying the same all this season. 

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11 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Only cos boyd missed a pinch mmm McCann compared to Jones night and day we havnt got the players we are going down and we will struggle in the championship Mark my words you get the blinkers off

Cannae beat a bit of doom and gloom, getting the drift from your previous posts you will be happy to have something to moan about.

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8 hours ago, Wrangodog said:

Meanwhile.................Alan Johnston's Dunfermline are top of the Championship. Which is where we're headed unless Jigment the figment of my imagination gets a grip.

Alan Johnston and Sandy Clark's Dunfermline! How ironic it would be to pass Dunfermline on the way down as they take our place. They'd be entitled to feel a tad pleased with that scenario. They did well at QOS, they're doing well at Pars. They come to Killie and are made to feel as welcome as flatulence in an astronaut suit (why? Because of the mass hysteria surrounding MJ and KS), made to split up (enter Locke) whereupon we contrive to usher AJ out the door and place GL in the hot seat with a three year deal. The Chuckle brothers would've been proud of that foresight. 

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Not really. At the time it was too much too soon for johnston. It's like folk saying that they'd take jackson irvine back in a heartbeat, when, at the time, he was a donkey for all but 7 weeks he was here.

You, me, even gary locke would have done well at that qos. The only full time team in a part time league. Their chairman opened his wallet, because he wanted out of that league before the huns arrived.

As i said in the other place. I had the pleasure of sitting in front of a former player & manager with over 40 years experience behind him during AJ's formative managerial time with us, and he couldn't figure out what they were trying to do. At times, it was like watching a second division team get stage fright against a 'big' team. AJ's subs served only to 'freshen legs' there was absolutely no change in the tactics that the world and it's mother could see weren't working. Sandy Clark's pre match routines were woeful and served only to give some of starting 11 routines which may come in handy during the game. (I have since been told that Peter Leven's are worse.)

Had it not been for boyd we'd have sunk without trace.

So, before we start re-writing history to suit today's narrative, let's just think about what it was actually like with aj in charge. Shoddy start (took us 10 league games to record a win), period of recovery(season 2, without clark saw us up with the nosebleeds, before reverting to form), followed by a back to the future trilogy of manure. (2 wins over christmas & new year saved his neck, when all but a select few were calling for his head after getting horsed by the worst rangers team in a generation)

You're right about the 3 year deal for locke though. After suffering through the too much too soon times of aj, it was complete folly for such a deal to be given to locke.

What they have done is learn from the mistakes that were made while with us, and not repeated them. So, comparing aj's management with us then, and his management with the pars now is like comparing Mayim Bialik with a ball pein hammer. They are not the same thing.

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13 minutes ago, CB said:

Not really. At the time it was too much too soon for johnston. It's like folk saying that they'd take jackson irvine back in a heartbeat, when, at the time, he was a donkey for all but 7 weeks he was here.

You, me, even gary locke would have done well at that qos. The only full time team in a part time league. Their chairman opened his wallet, because he wanted out of that league before the huns arrived.

As i said in the other place. I had the pleasure of sitting in front of a former player & manager with over 40 years experience behind him during AJ's formative managerial time with us, and he couldn't figure out what they were trying to do. At times, it was like watching a second division team get stage fright against a 'big' team. AJ's subs served only to 'freshen legs' there was absolutely no change in the tactics that the world and it's mother could see weren't working. Sandy Clark's pre match routines were woeful and served only to give some of starting 11 routines which may come in handy during the game. (I have since been told that Peter Leven's are worse.)

Had it not been for boyd we'd have sunk without trace.

So, before we start re-writing history to suit today's narrative, let's just think about what it was actually like with aj in charge. Shoddy start (took us 10 league games to record a win), period of recovery(season 2, without clark saw us up with the nosebleeds, before reverting to form), followed by a back to the future trilogy of manure. (2 wins over christmas & new year saved his neck, when all but a select few were calling for his head after getting horsed by the worst rangers team in a generation)

You're right about the 3 year deal for locke though. After suffering through the too much too soon times of aj, it was complete folly for such a deal to be given to locke.

What they have done is learn from the mistakes that were made while with us, and not repeated them. So, comparing aj's management with us then, and his management with the pars now is like comparing Mayim Bialik with a ball pein hammer. They are not the same thing.

This post is spot on. I speak to fans who tell me ("I said there was a player in Jackson Irvine and we just had to find his right position". . . NO YOU DIDN'T. he was tried everywhere and just like everyone else you agree he was terrible in every position he played. What he did afterwards is irrelevant. Then there's fans who say look at the pars "I knew there was a manager in Alan Johnson". . . NO YOU DIDN'T. you watched the lack of tactics, lack of gameplan and horrendous 'we was just unlucky' post match comments every week when everyone else with two eyes could see we were outplayed all over the park. 

If we get beat by Ross County next week then I think Lee McCulloch may well walk away. but when he goes on to win the champions league as manager of Barcelona. don't pipe up then and try and claim you said he should have stayed. . . because we'll know You didn't. 

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Just now, MarkD1989KTID said:

This post is spot on. I speak to fans who tell me ("I said there was a player in Jackson Irvine and we just had to find his right position". . . NO YOU DIDN'T. he was tried everywhere and just like everyone else you agree he was terrible in every position he played. What he did afterwards is irrelevant. Then there's fans who say look at the pars "I knew there was a manager in Alan Johnson". . . NO YOU DIDN'T. you watched the lack of tactics, lack of gameplan and horrendous 'we was just unlucky' post match comments every week when everyone else with two eyes could see we were outplayed all over the park. 

If we get beat by Ross County next week then I think Lee McCulloch may well walk away. but when he goes on to win the champions league as manager of Barcelona. don't pipe up then and try and claim you said he should have stayed. . . because we'll know You didn't. 

Fantastic post and bang on the money. With the exception of Lee Clark we've appointed novice managers repeatedly and they are all trying to figure it out as they go along. The fact they generally improve after that experience is almost inevitable. In our position as a regular relegation candidate it is pretty risky to let new managers hone their skills on the job.

I was behind LM and willing to give him time but he's digging a hole he (or someone else) may not be able to get us out of. Lee could do with an experienced head to turn to for advice just now. Perhaps he should give Walter Smith a call...

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They can speak for him/herself but I don't think CFM was saying that AJ was a great manager or that he was unfairly sacked. 

The points were that AJ arrived when there was a furore over KS's sacking, the NAPM protests were at their height, and he was forced to lose his mentor in Clark and work with Locke. 

Nobody could reasonably say that AJ was a great manager or showed signs of becoming one. 

But, to develop another of CFM's points, you couldn't blame him if he took some pleasure in, say, beating Killie in a play-off. 

There's little point in blaming AJ for failing when the real culprit(s) were higher up. 

 

 

Edited by skygod
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It's all about opinions, Jackson Irvine did look a decent player in midfield but was rarely played there. Johnston suffered the worst abuse I've seen a Kilmarnock manager get at Tynecastle when we lost 5-0, yet we beat St. Mirren and Hibs to stay up. His appearance at the AGM to explain his tactics was woeful, but MJ was probably happy it took the heat off him. Then there was Sandy Clark who didn't help Johnston's case one bit. Johnston was doomed after the pathetic no-show in the televised 3-0 game against Sevco and at the time I wanted him out.  The sides in the Championship don't appear to be as strong as before without a Hibs or Sevco, and Falkirk who normally challenge are struggling at the bottom end. Good luck to AJ he seems to do well in that division.

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11 hours ago, Candygram for mongo said:

Alan Johnston and Sandy Clark's Dunfermline! How ironic it would be to pass Dunfermline on the way down as they take our place. They'd be entitled to feel a tad pleased with that scenario. They did well at QOS, they're doing well at Pars. They come to Killie and are made to feel as welcome as flatulence in an astronaut suit (why? Because of the mass hysteria surrounding MJ and KS), made to split up (enter Locke) whereupon we contrive to usher AJ out the door and place GL in the hot seat with a three year deal. The Chuckle brothers would've been proud of that foresight. 

This

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7 hours ago, MarkD1989KTID said:

This post is spot on. I speak to fans who tell me ("I said there was a player in Jackson Irvine and we just had to find his right position". . . NO YOU DIDN'T. he was tried everywhere and just like everyone else you agree he was terrible in every position he played. What he did afterwards is irrelevant. Then there's fans who say look at the pars "I knew there was a manager in Alan Johnson". . . NO YOU DIDN'T. you watched the lack of tactics, lack of gameplan and horrendous 'we was just unlucky' post match comments every week when everyone else with two eyes could see we were outplayed all over the park. 

If we get beat by Ross County next week then I think Lee McCulloch may well walk away. but when he goes on to win the champions league as manager of Barcelona. don't pipe up then and try and claim you said he should have stayed. . . because we'll know You didn't. 

I was almost alone in defending AJ and Jackson Irvine. I was also accused of being an MJ sycophant when I suggested we may have other problems as well as him. 3000 home fans seem to suggest we have.

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On 24 September 2017 at 8:39 AM, CB said:

Not really. At the time it was too much too soon for johnston. It's like folk saying that they'd take jackson irvine back in a heartbeat, when, at the time, he was a donkey for all but 7 weeks he was here.

You, me, even gary locke would have done well at that qos. The only full time team in a part time league. Their chairman opened his wallet, because he wanted out of that league before the huns arrived.

As i said in the other place. I had the pleasure of sitting in front of a former player & manager with over 40 years experience behind him during AJ's formative managerial time with us, and he couldn't figure out what they were trying to do. At times, it was like watching a second division team get stage fright against a 'big' team. AJ's subs served only to 'freshen legs' there was absolutely no change in the tactics that the world and it's mother could see weren't working. Sandy Clark's pre match routines were woeful and served only to give some of starting 11 routines which may come in handy during the game. (I have since been told that Peter Leven's are worse.)

Had it not been for boyd we'd have sunk without trace.

So, before we start re-writing history to suit today's narrative, let's just think about what it was actually like with aj in charge. Shoddy start (took us 10 league games to record a win), period of recovery(season 2, without clark saw us up with the nosebleeds, before reverting to form), followed by a back to the future trilogy of manure. (2 wins over christmas & new year saved his neck, when all but a select few were calling for his head after getting horsed by the worst rangers team in a generation)

You're right about the 3 year deal for locke though. After suffering through the too much too soon times of aj, it was complete folly for such a deal to be given to locke.

What they have done is learn from the mistakes that were made while with us, and not repeated them. So, comparing aj's management with us then, and his management with the pars now is like comparing Mayim Bialik with a ball pein hammer. They are not the same thing.

Disagree with a lot of this. I do agree with the Boyd part and one could make an argument for it being too soon for AJ, not me though.

Saying anyone would've done well with QOS is a bit disrespectful to AJ's work there and subjective. The fact is he did well there and is doing well now. I'd argue he was making progress at Killie too. 

As for sitting with an ex-player/manager, I'll take your word for it and his. The noteworthy part was AJ's "formative managerial time" with us.....maybe I should've added this into my original post but I don't count AJ's first season or judge him significantly  on it as he had a very difficult first season largely due to the mess he inherited and the lack of players he was able to bring in; he survived it though and Boyd was a big factor in that. 

Jackson Irvine was not a donkey, never thought he was, always felt he could be a good player and was in spells for us. He was another one that was made to feel as welcome as flatulence in an astronaut suit. He was mocked-up in a donkey suit on social media (in fact I think it was the Killie Hippo) which was symptomatic of the cretinous NAPM mass hysteria of the time. Irvine, a good young prospect, was unfairly criticised by a sizeable portion of Killie fans and why? Because MJ sacked KS, brought in AJ and SC who brought JI on loan, so the empty heads put 2 and 2 together and came up with JI is a donkey. 

I also disagree about the re-writing history part. I've not said anything different from the time AJ came to Killie to now (or about Irvine). I think they should've given him his year's extension at the end of October of his second season. I said it then, since and now. Check previous posts if you wish. 

As for comparing AJ then to now, of course he'll be better equipped with the experiences he's had since...that goes for everyone in life in general. The facts are: QOS did well; Pars doing well. That's pre and post Killie. 

 

 

Edited by Candygram for mongo
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12 hours ago, Candygram for mongo said:

Alan Johnston and Sandy Clark's Dunfermline! How ironic it would be to pass Dunfermline on the way down as they take our place. They'd be entitled to feel a tad pleased with that scenario. They did well at QOS, they're doing well at Pars. They come to Killie and are made to feel as welcome as flatulence in an astronaut suit (why? Because of the mass hysteria surrounding MJ and KS), made to split up (enter Locke) whereupon we contrive to usher AJ out the door and place GL in the hot seat with a three year deal. The Chuckle brothers would've been proud of that foresight. 

People were pissed off at what happened to Kenny but the anger was directed where it should have been at MJ. AJ and his assistant were actually made to feel quite welcome until it became blindingly obvious AJ had absolutely no clue whatsoever and was completely  out of his depth. Now he has done exactly what he did at QOTS, brought a team up from league 1 with a massive amount of help from the board. If he succeeds in getting out of the Championship it will be very interesting to see how he gets on managing a team in the top league.  

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50 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

I was almost alone in defending AJ and Jackson Irvine. I was also accused of being an MJ sycophant when I suggested we may have other problems as well as him. 3000 home fans seem to suggest we have.

Almost but not quite. I felt it was bordering on the disgraceful the abuse and criticism dished out to MJ, AJ, SC and JI. Sometimes it cleared the border well into the disgraceful. 

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1 minute ago, MarkD1989KTID said:

To be fair to a few people on here psychologists have a name for what you're suffering from. . . 

Screenshot_20170924-180733.png

I can understand where you're coming from with this, after all, you don't know me, or know what I felt, said and wrote at the time. That's one of the drawbacks of this type of site. As long as I know and the people that know me. 

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