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Bobby14

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Legend! Let's just enjoy and appreciate what the Big Man is doing for us now and move on from this Govan-orientated jealousy, because let's be honest, that's what it is with us and The Rangers FC (and to a lesser extent Ra Sellick), plain old jealousy. We dislike them and their predecessors, Glasgow Rangers, because of all the glory-hunters who abandoned a badly-run Kilmarnock in the late 60's/early 70's for Ibrox.

Edited by Dieselfeet
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34 minutes ago, jesper said:

Decent counter arguments, fair enough!

I guess that's where opinion will always differ - nobody is right or wrong imho, but perception of what makes "legendary" status is just different in everyone's eyes.

Re Bullitt's reference to the Cardiff offer, he didn't want to go at least partly because he had Durrant and possibly others whispering in his ear that if he waited there would be an offer from Rangers. Thus an auction between Cardiff, Rangers and possibly others wasn't ever going to happen as he only wanted to go to one club.

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2 hours ago, jesper said:

Also, as stated above, when he left us the first time we lost millions in transfer fees because, when he heard Rangers were interested, he refused to sign a new deal that would have netted us upwards of £2m (he was "valued" at £5.5m shortly after he left us) at a time when it was desperately needed. In the end we got a paltry £400k by comparison.

Imagine... Boyds agent holds talks with both Rangers and Kilmarnock. Rangers are looking at Boyd because he is available for a lower fee than normal due to him being in the final few months of his contract. Killie want him to sign a new deal in order to obtain a larger fee. Boyd, as a Rangers fan, dreams of playing for his boyhood club and won’t jeopardise his chances by signing a new contract at Kilmarnock. Doing so may risk Rangers bulking at his new £2mil asking price and turning their attention to one of many other attainable targets in 2006.

I can understand his reasons for not signing a new deal, and we should probably move on because it was 12 years ago. His goals in his second and third spells have kept us in the league and if he finishes this season as the leagues top scorer then surely he has put to bed this debate. Legend in my eyes.

Edited by Bobby14
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5 minutes ago, Bobby14 said:

Boyds agent holds talks with both Rangers and Kilmarnock. Rangers are looking at Boyd because he is available for a lower fee than normal due to him being in the final few months of his contract. Killie want him to sign a new deal in order to obtain a larger fee. Boyd, as a Rangers fan, dreams of playing for his boyhood club and won’t jeopardise his chances by signing a new contract at Kilmarnock. Doing so may risk Rangers bulking at his new £2mil asking price and turning their attention to one of many other attainable targets in 2006.

I can understand his reasons for not signing a new deal, and we should probably move on because it was 12 years ago. His goals in his second and third spells have kept us in the league and if he finishes this season as the leagues top scorer then surely he has put to bed this debate. Legend in my eyes.

I understand the mechanics of the business behind the decision, but good grace would have been to sign a new contract, in the same way as Naismith did, knowing Rangers (and others) were interested. It was a foregone conclusion that we weren't going to be able to hang on to him, it would have been nice to maximise our potential return (by getting more than the £400k transfer fee + the £20k he gave the youth development) at the same time. By the time he left us for the second time, he had made his money in the game so didn't need to chase the final paycheck as some do. It could be argued that these are not the actions of a club legend, putting yourself before the club in such a way.

Speaking of moving on because of time-lapsed: There are a number of similarities between the way both Boyd and, a few years before him, Andy Millen left the club. There were a lot of unhappy fans when it was announced that Millen could be returning as youth team coach and some, on the forum particularly, were pretty vocal about it. That was 20+ years ago and Millen is still vilified for the way he left us yet Boyd, who left us under similar circumstances, is revered as a club legend. Something doesn't add up.

How can we hate one and idolise another? Would we have hated Boyd if he hadn't come back? Do his goals mean everything else gets swept under the carpet?

I am not a Boyd-hater by any means, I'm glad he's with us and delighted he's scoring goals and enjoying his football again. I even stand by the fact he is a goal-scoring legend for us but I just can't agree that he's a club legend.

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56 minutes ago, jesper said:

I understand the mechanics of the business behind the decision, but good grace would have been to sign a new contract, in the same way as Naismith did, knowing Rangers (and others) were interested. It was a foregone conclusion that we weren't going to be able to hang on to him, it would have been nice to maximise our potential return (by getting more than the £400k transfer fee + the £20k he gave the youth development) at the same time. By the time he left us for the second time, he had made his money in the game so didn't need to chase the final paycheck as some do. It could be argued that these are not the actions of a club legend, putting yourself before the club in such a way.

Speaking of moving on because of time-lapsed: There are a number of similarities between the way both Boyd and, a few years before him, Andy Millen left the club. There were a lot of unhappy fans when it was announced that Millen could be returning as youth team coach and some, on the forum particularly, were pretty vocal about it. That was 20+ years ago and Millen is still vilified for the way he left us yet Boyd, who left us under similar circumstances, is revered as a club legend. Something doesn't add up.

How can we hate one and idolise another? Would we have hated Boyd if he hadn't come back? Do his goals mean everything else gets swept under the carpet?

I am not a Boyd-hater by any means, I'm glad he's with us and delighted he's scoring goals and enjoying his football again. I even stand by the fact he is a goal-scoring legend for us but I just can't agree that he's a club legend.

This.

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12 minutes ago, DefinitelyMaybe said:

How can we hate one and idolise another? Would we have hated Boyd if he hadn't come back? Do his goals mean everything else gets swept under the carpet

Is this really true about millen? If so I guess it comes in two shades: he expressed desire to follow tb to Celtic and he played for ayr Utd? I dont hate him. I though he was an excellent servant to the cause and one of the most underrated centre half’s we’ve had in modern times. The whole discussion seems to be around what the components of “legend” are. For me it’s all about on field exploits. Boyd is a legend. I don’t have to like the person ( I do like Boyd). I certainly don’t expect them to put club interests ahead of personal interest ( would the club put individuals interest ahead of those of the club?). They don’t need to be one club man. They simply have to excel for the club over a prolonged period of time on the park. He’s done tha5 in spades. The label is used on others loosely eg Dylan Kerr, Alex Burke......they happened to be part of the cup winning team and will always be fondly remembered but they don’t come close to being legends in my eyes, the way boyd does. I’ll agree to disagree with those that take a harsher view.

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1 hour ago, jesper said:

I understand the mechanics of the business behind the decision, but good grace would have been to sign a new contract, in the same way as Naismith did, knowing Rangers (and others) were interested. It was a foregone conclusion that we weren't going to be able to hang on to him, it would have been nice to maximise our potential return (by getting more than the £400k transfer fee + the £20k he gave the youth development) at the same time. By the time he left us for the second time, he had made his money in the game so didn't need to chase the final paycheck as some do. It could be argued that these are not the actions of a club legend, putting yourself before the club in such a way.

Speaking of moving on because of time-lapsed: There are a number of similarities between the way both Boyd and, a few years before him, Andy Millen left the club. There were a lot of unhappy fans when it was announced that Millen could be returning as youth team coach and some, on the forum particularly, were pretty vocal about it. That was 20+ years ago and Millen is still vilified for the way he left us yet Boyd, who left us under similar circumstances, is revered as a club legend. Something doesn't add up.

How can we hate one and idolise another? Would we have hated Boyd if he hadn't come back? Do his goals mean everything else gets swept under the carpet?

I am not a Boyd-hater by any means, I'm glad he's with us and delighted he's scoring goals and enjoying his football again. I even stand by the fact he is a goal-scoring legend for us but I just can't agree that he's a club legend.

s**te talk

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1 minute ago, Oldkillie said:

s**te talk

Well constructed and eloquently put argument, did that take you long to think up?

Would you care to elaborate as to why you disagree, or would it be too much trouble to think up more than two words, one of which is an expletive? You crazy cat. 

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4 hours ago, jesper said:

I understand the mechanics of the business behind the decision, but good grace would have been to sign a new contract, in the same way as Naismith did, knowing Rangers (and others) were interested. It was a foregone conclusion that we weren't going to be able to hang on to him, it would have been nice to maximise our potential return (by getting more than the £400k transfer fee + the £20k he gave the youth development) at the same time. By the time he left us for the second time, he had made his money in the game so didn't need to chase the final paycheck as some do. It could be argued that these are not the actions of a club legend, putting yourself before the club in such a way.

Speaking of moving on because of time-lapsed: There are a number of similarities between the way both Boyd and, a few years before him, Andy Millen left the club. There were a lot of unhappy fans when it was announced that Millen could be returning as youth team coach and some, on the forum particularly, were pretty vocal about it. That was 20+ years ago and Millen is still vilified for the way he left us yet Boyd, who left us under similar circumstances, is revered as a club legend. Something doesn't add up.

How can we hate one and idolise another? Would we have hated Boyd if he hadn't come back? Do his goals mean everything else gets swept under the carpet?

I am not a Boyd-hater by any means, I'm glad he's with us and delighted he's scoring goals and enjoying his football again. I even stand by the fact he is a goal-scoring legend for us but I just can't agree that he's a club legend.

Is Andy Millen 5th (?) on the clubs all time scoring charts. No. His goals kept us in the league. What doesn’t add up?

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10 minutes ago, Bobby14 said:

Is Andy Millen 5th (?) on the clubs all time scoring charts. No. His goals kept us in the league. What doesn’t add up?

To be fair, in the very next paragraph of my post you'll see I cover that very point with a question:

5 hours ago, jesper said:

Do his goals mean everything else gets swept under the carpet?

Also in reference the "his goals kept us in the league" argument: Kevin Kyle's goals kept us in the league in 2009/10 - is he a club legend? 

Edited by jesper
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1 hour ago, jesper said:

To be fair, in the very next paragraph of my post you'll see I cover that very point with a question:

Also in reference the "his goals kept us in the league" argument: Kevin Kyle's goals kept us in the league in 2009/10 - is he a club legend? 

I’m sure the majority of Killie fans would have him down as a legend. Don’t know if you’re playing devils advocate, but comparing him to a divisive figure like Millen, or Kyle who played for a season and a half is a bit ridiculous. 

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8 hours ago, Bobby14 said:

I’m sure the majority of Killie fans would have him down as a legend. Don’t know if you’re playing devils advocate, but comparing him to a divisive figure like Millen, or Kyle who played for a season and a half is a bit ridiculous. 

I'm sure they do, and that's exactly their right - nobody is right and wrong here, it's all about opinion. 

I am playing devil's advocate, to an extent. I can see that other side of the argument too, and I agree his goalscoring record is off the charts. To me he is definitely a goalscoring legend for us and I'm glad he's with us again. 

However, to me a club legend requires a bit more loyalty to the club. A club legend doesn't leave to join the opposition the minute a better offer comes along. Twice. 

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I think you're introducing complexity where none is required. It's fitba, not a Nobel prize. 

If a fan of another club was to mention to you that Kris Boyd must be a Killie legend, and your response was 'He' s a goalscoring legend, but not a club legend', I think they would probably say 'Er, aye, OK, whatever' and wonder what the f**k you were on about. 

In fifty years time when the next great Killie striker is homing in on Boyd's position on the goalscorers chart, no one will talk about him leaving for Rangers. 

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20 minutes ago, Scooby_Doo said:

I think you're introducing complexity where none is required. It's fitba, not a Nobel prize. 

If a fan of another club was to mention to you that Kris Boyd must be a Killie legend, and your response was 'He' s a goalscoring legend, but not a club legend', I think they would probably say 'Er, aye, OK, whatever' and wonder what the f**k you were on about. 

In fifty years time when the next great Killie striker is homing in on Boyd's position on the goalscorers chart, no one will talk about him leaving for Rangers. 

Fair point, but I probably wouldn't be as detailed as that tbh, it's only coming across that way because the conversation is on the forum, being debated with numerous people.  

Out in the "real world", if someone asked me if I thought Kris Boyd was a Kilmarnock legend I'd say "no, but he's been a fantastic goalscorer for us". 

Edited by jesper
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Just now, Bhamkillieken said:

can i ask as you dont rate boyd as a club legend, who do you think fits the bill?

Legend is a subjective word to be fair, I'm sure the older ones will have plenty (McIlroy etc) but during my time the first names that come to mind when I'm asked about club legends would be Montgomery and Burns. 

We've had some brilliant players (Eremenko, Durrant), some fantastic servants (Pascali, Dindeluex) and some fantastic goalscorers (Wright, Boyd) but if we're talking club legends I'd possibly go with Monty and Burns. 

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29 minutes ago, jesper said:

Legend is a subjective word to be fair, I'm sure the older ones will have plenty (McIlroy etc) but during my time the first names that come to mind when I'm asked about club legends would be Montgomery and Burns. 

We've had some brilliant players (Eremenko, Durrant), some fantastic servants (Pascali, Dindeluex) and some fantastic goalscorers (Wright, Boyd) but if we're talking club legends I'd possibly go with Monty and Burns. 

Burns left us in the lurch to go to Celtic, that must be close to your thoughts about Boyd?

The good lord Wullie Watters for me even though he was here only briefly. there is a certain man who only played 11 times and scored 1 goal and he is a legend, DVT.

For me it is not about time served, but what you do when here. Otherwise Gary Hay would be in.

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10 hours ago, Bobby14 said:

I’m sure the majority of Killie fans would have him down as a legend. Don’t know if you’re playing devils advocate, but comparing him to a divisive figure like Millen, or Kyle who played for a season and a half is a bit ridiculous. 

Just on the divisiveness part of this post, if you remember a few months ago Boydie himself was a fairly divisive figure amongst Kilmarnock fans. To go down another route, away from his obviously impressive goal-scoring record, there's an 8 page thread, with various debate over his commitment to Killie here:

This was just a few months ago, has everything been forgiven already? There's an awful lot of uproar in that thread for someone who is being revered as a club legend.

A couple of highlights from that thread...

Playing Simply the Best on the piano:

Even the comment from the Twitter post is mocking us.

And...

Welcoming Kris Commons to "the most successful club in the world":

Would a Kilmarnock club legend, say a Montgomerie or Burns, have done something like that while playing with us? Is that not a bit embarrassing to Kilmarnock to have a current player and supposed club legend being so openly disrespectful to the club paying his wages?

Would a Dalglish, Gerrard, Scholes, Terry or any other player who fans deem as "club legends" get away with insulting their fanbase the same way and still be considered a legend by the fans?

It just doesn't sit well with me, and a few months ago it didn't sit well with a lot of other Killie fans either. It's a funny old game.

 

Edited by jesper
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He should have been at the Open Day, he had other contractual obligations apparently and the boss at the time allowed him time off to do it, it wouldn't happen now. The simply the best tune was apparently dubbed on later and an official apology to Kris and the club was issued later by the TV company. The 'most successful club in the world' thing grates a bit but I have no doubt it was scripted and put in to emphasise the old firm angle and 'rivalry' between the two 'stars' of the show.

I think he's earned his legend status, that doesn't mean I have to like the guy as a person or appreciate every single thing he does, although I don't dislike him as I don't know him personally.

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