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4 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

I would assume pretty much the same factors at Motherwell, if you mean economic.

Over past few years Motherwell is the club which  has been the most realistic benchmark for Killie in many areas

None of our group of seven have renewed our STs yet. 6 of us definitely will renew this month and the 7th might (depending on his work situation) 

Early bird was incentive to commit early in the past. I suspect release of the fixture list may be a catalyst for a surge in renewals this month 

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2 hours ago, Cheviotstag said:

Over past few years Motherwell is the club which  has been the most realistic benchmark for Killie in many areas

None of our group of seven have renewed our STs yet. 6 of us definitely will renew this month and the 7th might (depending on his work situation) 

Early bird was incentive to commit early in the past. I suspect release of the fixture list may be a catalyst for a surge in renewals this month 

Good news :hurrah:

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9 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

I would assume pretty much the same factors at Motherwell, if you mean economic.

Then you would assume incorrectly I'm afraid - while East Ayrshire and North Lanarkshire both have some of the highest poverty rates in Scotland, Kilmarnock is one of the poorest towns in East Ayrshire, with the highest rate of child poverty in particular.  Onthank and Shortless for example are in the top 5% most deprived areas in the whole of Scotland, and Kilmarnock South (which I think is around Caprington but I'm not sure) not only is in the top 5%, but sadly also has the highest rate of child poverty in the country.  While Motherwell obviously has has some deprived areas - in particular in the east (I'm not fluent in the area names in Motherwell) , it also has some of the least deprived areas in Scotland, with three of it's fourteen areas in the bottom 10 (for deprivation) in the whole of Scotland.

Both places also have above average unemployment, with Motherwell at 4.1% and Kilmarnock higher at 4.5%.  However, 23% of Motherwell's unemployed are students, versus 12% in Kilmarnock.

At the household level, the difference is pretty stark, with 16% of workless households in Motherwell, and 25% in Kilmarnock (that's of households with at least one non-disabled working age person).

As you can hopefully infer, these figures will also be affected by the multiplicative impact of covid, so you may wish to incorporate this into your thinking when criticising people that are among the poorest in the country for not spending spuriously.

Sources:  Scottish poverty statistcis from gov.uk, scottish index of multiple deprivation (if you're examining that, download the data and punt it into tableau or something as the mapping tool they've built doesn't work properly), and the Nomis labour statistics.

Edited by Lorielus
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4 minutes ago, Lorielus said:

Then you would assume incorrectly I'm afraid - while East Ayrshire and North Lanarkshire both have some of the highest poverty rates in Scotland, Kilmarnock is one of the poorest towns in East Ayrshire, with the highest rate of child poverty in particular.  Onthank and Shortless for example are in the top 5% most deprived areas in the whole of Scotland, and Kilmarnock South (which I think is around Caprington but I'm not sure) not only is in the top 5%, but sadly also has the highest rate of child poverty in the country.  While Motherwell obviously has has some deprived areas - in particular in the east (I'm not fluent in the area names in Motherwell) , it also has some of the least deprived areas in Scotland, with three of it's fourteen areas in the bottom 10 (for deprivation) in the whole of Scotland.

Both places also have above average unemployment, with Motherwell at 4.1% and Kilmarnock higher at 4.5%.  However, 23% of Motherwell's unemployed are students, versus 12% in Kilmarnock.

At the household level, the difference is pretty stark, with 16% of workless households in Motherwell, and 25% in Kilmarnock (that's of households with at least one non-disabled working age person).

As you can hopefully infer, these figures will also be affected by the multiplicative impact of covid, so you may wish to incorporate this into your thinking when criticising people that are among the poorest in the country for not spending spuriously.

Sources:  Scottish poverty statistcis from gov.uk, scottish index of multiple deprivation (if you're examining that, download the data and punt it into tableau or something as the mapping tool they've built doesn't work properly), and the Nomis labour statistics.

My goodness, the lengths some people go to, to justify Killie exceptionalism :D Not one of the six of us that go live in Kilmarnock and that’s true for most of the other people I know that attend. We/they are all in good jobs or have decent pensions. Most of the bods in Shortlees/Onthank probably go about in Sevco shirts. There’s plenty of people in Kilmarnock comfortably off. Don’t be so doom laden. 

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6 minutes ago, Scouser2 said:

No....Glasgow area 

.and yes ...

There you go. We must have an untapped market yet in Killie. Three of ours and an occasional fan, are Glasgow. It’s amazing the loyalty of most of these fans with their season ticket purchases and travel, yet we can only get a relatively small amount to go locally unless it’s a big game. 

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Their are possibly a few certainties in this life and one of them is the ability of killie fans to debate ( if that is the proper definition) any topic on our forums that doesn't involve a game we have played we are world champions at this!

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3 minutes ago, Bbk said:

Their are possibly a few certainties in this life and one of them is the ability of killie fans to debate ( if that is the proper definition) any topic on our forums that doesn't involve a game we have played we are world champions at this!

We haven't played a match in over three months so I think we've done well just to keep the forum ticking over! 

 

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1 minute ago, skygod said:

We haven't played a match in over three months so I think we've done well just to keep the forum ticking over! 

 

I agree we all deserve credit I suppose for at least keeping in touch long may it continue !

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

My goodness, the lengths some people go to, to justify Killie exceptionalism :D Not one of the six of us that go live in Kilmarnock and that’s true for most of the other people I know that attend. We/they are all in good jobs or have decent pensions. Most of the bods in Shortlees/Onthank probably go about in Sevco shirts. There’s plenty of people in Kilmarnock comfortably off. Don’t be so doom laden. 

Someone provides you with some facts that could well be a decent reason why Well have sold more season tickets, but because it doesn’t suit your agenda then you don’t even acknowledge it. 

If course there will be plenty of Killie fans who don’t come from Kilmarnock, but the vast majority will. 

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2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

My goodness, the lengths some people go to, to justify Killie exceptionalism :D Not one of the six of us that go live in Kilmarnock and that’s true for most of the other people I know that attend. We/they are all in good jobs or have decent pensions. Most of the bods in Shortlees/Onthank probably go about in Sevco shirts. There’s plenty of people in Kilmarnock comfortably off. Don’t be so doom laden. 

He (sometimes) speaks the truth and people don’t like it. The fact is we don’t have a big core support.
We need to  accept it and try and do something about it (that could perhaps be a focus for the Trust) rather than coming up with a multitude of reasons why in some way the town of Kilmarnock is unique. 

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1 hour ago, Skora11 said:

Someone provides you with some facts that could well be a decent reason why Well have sold more season tickets, but because it doesn’t suit your agenda then you don’t even acknowledge it. 

If course there will be plenty of Killie fans who don’t come from Kilmarnock, but the vast majority will. 

The facts provided are over simplistic and there is no automatic correlation between them. For years the east end of Glasgow as been one of the poorest places in Britain yet attendances at football matches are huge.
or if you want an example closer to home Ayr will be a wealthier town than Kilmarnock but get smaller attendances at football matches. Same for Inverness I would imagine. 

Edited by historyman
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1 hour ago, Skora11 said:

Someone provides you with some facts that could well be a decent reason why Well have sold more season tickets, but because it doesn’t suit your agenda then you don’t even acknowledge it. 

If course there will be plenty of Killie fans who don’t come from Kilmarnock, but the vast majority will. 

Motherwells population is about a third less than Kilmarnock, so theoretically we should have a much larger support on that basis, which backs up M07s point to a degree.

It is also very irksome that so many Erse Cheek ‘fans’ live amongst us to our clubs detriment.

This is true for all other teams though sadly, especially Hamilton which has an even bigger population.....Scotland’s shame at its worst.......

Edited by Loudoun Killie
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15 minutes ago, historyman said:

The facts provided are over simplistic and there is no automatic correlation between them. For years the east end of Glasgow as been one of the poorest places in Britain yet attendance at football matches are huge.
or if you want an example closer to home Ayr will be a wealthier town than Kilmarnock but get smaller attendances at football matches. Same for Inverness I would imagine. 

Ok so then it would be success that effects attendances? Going by that, then there is another massive factor why Motherwell have sold more season tickets than us so far. They are off the back of their best league seasons in years. 

Much easier for people to commit to paying £300 odd quid when the team is playing well!

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28 minutes ago, Skora11 said:

Ok so then it would be success that effects attendances? Going by that, then there is another massive factor why Motherwell have sold more season tickets than us so far. They are off the back of their best league seasons in years. 

Much easier for people to commit to paying £300 odd quid when the team is playing well!

If you support Kilmarnock, you don’t do it on the basis of permanent top three finishes. Going by size, we should not even be in the top six. We have performed above our status for most of our history and probably this gives a false impression. When we won the league cup, after a fantastic success against Celtic, we had some home crowds of just over three thousand the rest of the season and there was no uplift in season tickets and even after miraculously topping the league in a calendar year under SSC, our attendances showed only modest increases in terms of actual numbers, and certainly not what the club deserved. Your argument is sadly, just another excuse. Funnily enough, the more season tickets we sell, the more chance of success. 

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42 minutes ago, Skora11 said:

Ok so then it would be success that effects attendances? Going by that, then there is another massive factor why Motherwell have sold more season tickets than us so far. They are off the back of their best league seasons in years. 

Much easier for people to commit to paying £300 odd quid when the team is playing well!

Of course success affects attendances. That’s why we sold more season tickets than we had in years when we finished third under Steve Clarke. 
However, the number was way down on what we saw in the 1990s and the early 2000s. There has been a long term decline since then which will largely be down to the socio economic factors that you mentioned in your post. 
However, rather than try to find reasons to justify it we all need to try to come up with some ideas to stop the rot. It’s a vicious circle, fewer sales means lower budgets which will generally mean poorer players, performances, and results which will mean fewer sales and so on. No club is exempt that’s why it’s disappointing that the long term trend is still downward despite our recent success 

Edited by historyman
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26 minutes ago, Fudger said:

I agree with @Mclean07, sometimes its depressing reading people going out their way to make excuses for us not having a higher amount of season ticket holders or tickets sold. 

regardless of the poorest areas and population we should be at least competing with Motherwell, st mirren etc.

and when the season stars it is highly possible that the numbers for Motherwell, St Mirren and Killie will be quite similar.

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4 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

My goodness, the lengths some people go to, to justify Killie exceptionalism :D Not one of the six of us that go live in Kilmarnock and that’s true for most of the other people I know that attend. We/they are all in good jobs or have decent pensions. Most of the bods in Shortlees/Onthank probably go about in Sevco shirts. There’s plenty of people in Kilmarnock comfortably off. Don’t be so doom laden. 

Spoken like a true moron - reality doesn't care about your anecdote of the six folk you know.

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1 hour ago, Loudoun Killie said:

Motherwells population is about a third less than Kilmarnock, so theoretically we should have a much larger support on that basis, which backs up M07s point to a degree.

That is the old trick of not including Wishaw as part of Motherwell. Their joint population is 59,000 while Killie's is 46,350.

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1 hour ago, historyman said:

The facts provided are over simplistic and there is no automatic correlation between them. For years the east end of Glasgow as been one of the poorest places in Britain yet attendances at football matches are huge.
or if you want an example closer to home Ayr will be a wealthier town than Kilmarnock but get smaller attendances at football matches. Same for Inverness I would imagine. 

The east end of Glasgow is where Celtic are based but their support doesn't just come from there, easily seen if you are driving back from an away Killie game and hundreds of supporters buses are streaming out of Glasgow in the opposite direction. Proximity to Glasgow is a factor as it is for other clubs in west/central Scotland. The team that your parents support is also a factor, and when so many Scottish football fans have historically supported the big two clubs it is going to take success of some sort to get young fans attracted to our club. I like Rugby Park but it is easier to get crowd involvement in a ground more suited to our average attendance. Credit to the Trust they are doing their level best to improve fan involvement and attendances, but we are facing a huge challenge unless a vaccine is found for Covid-19. 

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