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[CSI Kilmarnock]

21 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

The problem of sectarianism in the UK  was generally created by the british empire general Knox.  The empire noticed that the north and south of ireland were getting quite close, no issues between the largely protestant north and catholic south.  This gave them the fear so General Knox came up with the idea of the Orange Order, and to make doubly sure this embedded in society and divided the nation down religious lines , they started it up on the west of Scotland too where a large number of Irish immigrants were settling.

It's a modern thing deliberately designed to speed hatred, the OO is or was an organisation set up and pushed towards unionism and agreed of anything not of London elite rule.

It masquerades as an order to promote protestant values, but allows and never distances itself from terrorism, sectarian violence and disorder.

It needs banned, as does the knights if St Columba,  on the other side.  Rid the nation of catholic schools and educate the population in the true history of these orders and their origins.  This MAY slowly rid our nation of this vile british creation.

I’m sure it was unintentional on your part, but your suggestion that RC schools should be banned reflects the institutional sectarianism in Scotland. I am (or perhaps was) catholic, but my children go to a “non-denominational state school”. I use the term advisedly because the minister from the laigh Kirk seems to have unfettered access to preach to the kids, assemblies involve prayers, most major events are held in the Kirk etc ...

In my view, the state should not be facilitating/encouraging/enforcing any religious or denominational outlook, and if they weren’t, there would be no need for alternative “denominational schools”.

It doesn’t bother me so much that I make the kids sit out (it’s ridiculous that the option to sit out and be marked as ‘different’ is the official alternative) as that would create problems of it own. They’re not catholic, but they are not members of the Laigh Kirk either so why is “the state” trying to indoctrinate them?

[Beaker71]

13 minutes ago, CSI Kilmarnock said:

I’m sure it was unintentional on your part, but your suggestion that RC schools should be banned reflects the institutional sectarianism in Scotland. I am (or perhaps was) catholic, but my children go to a “non-denominational state school”. I use the term advisedly because the minister from the laigh Kirk seems to have unfettered access to preach to the kids, assemblies involve prayers, most major events are held in the Kirk etc ...

In my view, the state should not be facilitating/encouraging/enforcing any religious or denominational outlook, and if they weren’t, there would be no need for alternative “denominational schools”.

It doesn’t bother me so much that I make the kids sit out (it’s ridiculous that the option to sit out and be marked as ‘different’ is the official alternative) as that would create problems of it own. They’re not catholic, but they are not members of the Laigh Kirk either so why is “the state” trying to indoctrinate them?

It wasnt unintentional it was meant, and your response in the initial question is all 'they're taling away our guns'.  I hope your insinuation that I am institutionally sectarian was unintentional, as I'm the exact opposite, as personally I couldn't give a s**t what you're religion is, it's a personal choice and that's what it should be a choice.  Bot foisted one child from an early ages that's what causes the sectarian issues, others of different belief systems being seen as different.

It is my opinion and belief that religion should not be the driver in any mainstream education system.  RME is in the curriculum to give a widespread basic understanding of religions accross the world and that's about the extent it should be.

If needed then ALL local religious leaders from every faith should be available for talks during specific assemblies equally to inform the school pupils about their places and systems of worship.

But schools are for education, and the development of the child.

IMO religious indoctrination should never ever be part of that.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Beaker71

[Scooby_Doo]

If you're not institutionally sectarian, why did you only propose abolishing Catholic schools?

There is no such thing as non-denominational schools in Scotland as far as I can tell. The others are Church of Scotland schools.

[CSI Kilmarnock]

55 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

It wasnt unintentional it was meant, and your response in the initial question is all 'they're taling away our guns'.  I hope your insinuation that I am institutionally sectarian was unintentional, as I'm the exact opposite, as personally I couldn't give a s**t what you're religion is, it's a personal choice and that's what it should be a choice.  Bot foisted one child from an early ages that's what causes the sectarian issues, others of different belief systems being seen as different.

It is my opinion and belief that religion should not be the driver in any mainstream education system.  RME is in the curriculum to give a widespread basic understanding of religions accross the world and that's about the extent it should be.

If needed then ALL local religious leaders from every faith should be available for talks during specific assemblies equally to inform the school pupils about their places and systems of worship.

But schools are for education, and the development of the child.

IMO religious indoctrination should never ever be part of that.

My mistake, but thanks for clarifying your sectarian intentions. Leaving aside that you seem to have completely missed my point, it didn’t take you long to get to the racial stereotyping, did it? Do you really think that introducing guns (metaphorical or otherwise) to this particular discussion, in response to my comments, is appropriate?

[Beaker71]

20 minutes ago, Scooby_Doo said:

If you're not institutionally sectarian, why did you only propose abolishing Catholic schools?

There is no such thing as non-denominational schools in Scotland as far as I can tell. The others are Church of Scotland schools.

Read my reply properly.  I said religious indoctrination has NO PLACE in education and that holds for all Faith's.

Denominational schools are a source of segregation, on all faiths and none.  Shouldn't be happening.

[Beaker71]

1 minute ago, CSI Kilmarnock said:

My mistake, but thanks for clarifying your sectarian intentions. Leaving aside that you seem to have completely missed my point, it didn’t take you long to get to the racial stereotyping, did it? Do you really think that introducing guns (metaphorical or otherwise) to this particular discussion, in response to my comments, is appropriate?

Yes I do and once again the mentality is you're sectarian of anyone suggests touching catholic schools.

ALL denominational schools, including church of Scotland ones should go.  Simple.

Religion is a personal choice, it should be taught from a broad perspective with visits from ALL faith leaders from time to time to make sure the pupils know they have somewhere to go or someone else to speak to should they wish.  It should not be a driving force in ANY educational establishment, v

Protestant (whatever flavour), Episcopal, Roman Catholic,  Muslim, Jesuit, etc.  Have no place other than as aspect of the curriculum. 

The fact that you fail to understand this in my points and then start the insinuations says more about you than me.  The guns metaphor is absolutely valid, as it highlights the starting and knee jerk reaction you gave.  You insinuated I held sectarian views because I had suggested catholic schools should be abolished, I should perhaps have used denominational schools which may have made my point clearer,  but the point stands.

Religion should not be the main driver in Schools,  they can teach morality without involving a supreme being or faith, they can teach right from wrong without invoking religious teachings.  But they can also educate about ALl religions and provide access to those Faith's without selecting one as their chosen faith to ram down kids throats.

[skygod]

18 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

But they can also educate about ALl religions....

Mrs Malaprop...meet Beaker!

Beaker - Mrs Malaprop. 

 

[CSI Kilmarnock]

30 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Yes I do and once again the mentality is you're sectarian of anyone suggests touching catholic schools.

ALL denominational schools, including church of Scotland ones should go.  Simple.

Religion is a personal choice, it should be taught from a broad perspective with visits from ALL faith leaders from time to time to make sure the pupils know they have somewhere to go or someone else to speak to should they wish.  It should not be a driving force in ANY educational establishment, v

Protestant (whatever flavour), Episcopal, Roman Catholic,  Muslim, Jesuit, etc.  Have no place other than as aspect of the curriculum. 

The fact that you fail to understand this in my points and then start the insinuations says more about you than me.  The guns metaphor is absolutely valid, as it highlights the starting and knee jerk reaction you gave.  You insinuated I held sectarian views because I had suggested catholic schools should be abolished, I should perhaps have used denominational schools which may have made my point clearer,  but the point stands.

Religion should not be the main driver in Schools,  they can teach morality without involving a supreme being or faith, they can teach right from wrong without invoking religious teachings.  But they can also educate about ALl religions and provide access to those Faith's without selecting one as their chosen faith to ram down kids throats.

At what point did I say Catholic schools should not be abolished? I send my kids to a “state” school even though the Catholic school is closer, I described myself as Catholic (but suggested that referring to it in the past tense might be appropriate), and I allow my kids to partake in the religious “education” there, despite believing that the church (any church) should not have a direct role in their education, because I don’t want them to be seen as different, just because their parents don’t want them to be involved in religion.

I made two points: 

1. You placing the blame for sectarian issues in society at the door of Catholic schools, i.e. by singling out Catholic schools rather than the education system in general, is in itself, sectarian, whether your intended it to be or not (but you have confirmed you intentions); and

2. The state school system is denominational - it is Church of Scotland.

I must admit, I hadn’t realised the famine was over, but I’ll save you the trouble of pointing it out to me.

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by CSI Kilmarnock

[gdevoy]

1 hour ago, Beaker71 said:

Religion is a personal choice, it should be taught from a broad perspective with visits from ALL faith leaders from time to time to make sure the pupils know they have somewhere to go or someone else to speak to should they wish.  It should not be a driving force in ANY educational establishment, 

 

I think you may have become slightly confused between a lifestyle choice like what colour to dye your hair and a fundamental belief.

To people with strong faith, it is absolutely essential that their beliefs are passed on to their children. 

Now when it comes to Roman Catholic  vs Refirned tradition you are talking about denominations where everybody believes the same thing, just not in the same way. 

Really confusing, isn't it? And whats more I'll bet it is right over the heads of the knuckle draggers in Geirge Square who will always find some excuse to get lageresd up and behave like Neaderthals. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by gdevoy

[Beaker71]

42 minutes ago, CSI Kilmarnock said:

At what point did I say Catholic schools should not be abolished? I send my kids to a “state” school even though the Catholic school is closer, I described myself as Catholic (but suggested that referring to it in the past tense might be appropriate), and I allow my kids to partake in the religious “education” there, despite believing that the church (any church) should not have a direct role in their education, because I don’t want them to be seen as different, just because their parents don’t want them to be involved in religion.

I made two points: 

1. You placing the blame for sectarian issues in society at the door of Catholic schools, i.e. by singling out Catholic schools rather than the education system in general, is in itself, sectarian, whether your intended it to be or not (but you have confirmed you intentions); and

2. The state school system is denominational - it is Church of Scotland.

I must admit, I hadn’t realised the famine was over, but I’ll save you the trouble of pointing it out to me.

 

At no point did I lay the blame for sectarianism at catholic schools.  It is 100% a society issue driven by historical british empire actions and current societal and educational structures.

There being a desire if faith schools IS one of the issues, but I actually clarified my point later by stating that there should be NO denominational schools of any faith. 

Your famine comment is simply ridiculous, and paints you as holding sectarian views.  Jesus wept you have a serious chip on your shoulder.

[Beaker71]

8 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I think you may have become slightly confused between a lifestyle choice like what colour to dye your hair and a fundamental belief.

To people with strong faith, it is absolutely essential that their beliefs are passed on to their children. 

Now when it comes to Roman Catholic  vs Refirned tradition you are talking about denominations where everybody believes the same thing, just not in the same way. 

Really confusing, isn't it? And whats more I'll bet it is right over the heads of the knuckle draggers in Geirge Square who will always find some excuse to get lageresd up and behave like Neaderthals. 

Don't disagree on the point of it being over the heads of the mutants in George square.  But I do disagree about your proposition of faith, where we can agree is that the familial unit may choose to enforce their beliefs on their children, but my point stands that it should never be for the educational system to reinforce those views or beliefs.

I would argue that it is for the education system to challenge those and open the child's perception of the world to allow them to male the informed choice as they develop intellectually and morally.  Imo this is best achieved in an open and wide learning experience and not a parochial (and i use that in the local and not narrow minded sense) vision from a denominational educational aspect.

I actually dont think many of us are disagreeing some have just taken a point out of context and resorted to a learned response, which in this case reinforces the necessity of my point.

[CSI Kilmarnock]

I’m pretty sure I’m not the one with the chip ...

I also agree the we are all probably more or less of the same view and are basically having a fight in an almost empty room, I’m just enjoying plucking your strings (when I should be working).

[Scooby_Doo]

I see your mistake @CSI Kilmarnock, you thought he said 'Rid the nation of Catholic schools', which could be considered institutionally sectarian.

In fact, he said:

On 6/18/2020 at 9:50 AM, Beaker71 said:

Rid the nation of catholic schools

Oh.

[Beaker71]

28 minutes ago, Scooby_Doo said:

I see your mistake @CSI Kilmarnock, you thought he said 'Rid the nation of Catholic schools', which could be considered institutionally sectarian.

In fact, he said:

Oh.

Scooby stop being a dick, I clarified myself in a later post.  The word usage should have been rid the country if faith schools.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Beaker71

[gdevoy]

1 hour ago, Beaker71 said:

Don't disagree on the point of it being over the heads of the mutants in George square.  But I do disagree about your proposition of faith, where we can agree is that the familial unit may choose to enforce their beliefs on their children, but my point stands that it should never be for the educational system to reinforce those views or beliefs.

I actually agree it should be up to schools to expand the mind not reinforce parental beliefs. Sadly that is not how many parents see it as they gave no concept if jyst hiw barriw their own minds are.

My wife worked in a Roman Catholic school and many Muslins chose to send their children there because they thought, while not promoting Islam,  there would be a better acceptance of the place of faith in society there than in State schools.

[Nobody]

Sad to see that this thread has gone so far off topic when the original objective was simply to get wired into race bigots and SevCo thugs...

Edited June 19, 2020 by KenVaagen1984

[Zorro]

My son attends a catholic school, despite my wife and I both being atheists. He has never had religion shoved down his throat and anyone who thinks catholic schools are ‘the problem‘ are sorely mistaken. If anything I’d suggest the community aspect and support are far better than anything offered by our local non-dom. 

He wasn’t separated from his friends either (another usual excuse given for banning catholic schools), he chose to go with them to the catholic school. Football gave him the opportunity to mix with kids from other schools. 

[Beaker71]

3 minutes ago, Zorro said:

My son attends a catholic school, despite my wife and I both being atheists. He has never had religion shoved down his throat and anyone who thinks catholic schools are ‘the problem‘ are sorely mistaken. If anything I’d suggest the community aspect and support are far better than anything offered by our local non-dom. 

He wasn’t separated from his friends either (another usual excuse given for banning catholic schools), he chose to go with them to the catholic school. Football gave him the opportunity to mix with kids from other schools. 

Literally noone said catholic schools are the issue, separation of society down religious grounds is.  Faith schools are a symptom if that, I'd they weren't there and religion given its rightful place in the broad educational curriculum would assist in the removam of the societal issues we have.

[Zorro]

1 minute ago, Beaker71 said:

Literally noone said catholic schools are the issue, separation of society down religious grounds is.  Faith schools are a symptom if that, I'd they weren't there and religion given its rightful place in the broad educational curriculum would assist in the removam of the societal issues we have.

Who’s separated on religious grounds? 

[Zorro]

Kids will always find something to fight about. I had to travel to Glenrothes for high school. Three non-dom high schools,   no catholic high school and we fought regularly with the kids from the other schools because they were different. It didn’t matter that the only difference was postcodes. That was enough. Trying to pretend abolishing catholic schools will solve the issue of sectarianism is childlike in its oversimplification of a complex issue. 

[Beaker71]

4 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Who’s separated on religious grounds? 

FFS read the thread...  Faith schools are a means of separation, whether they're used like that everywhere or jot is largely irrelevant.  The so called non denominational schools provide access for church if Scotland ministers to the children, but not other Faith's regularly or even in an organised manner.  By their very definition the catholic schools so the same for the catholic priests.

If we dumped all of this for properly non faith schools and afforded religion its proper place in the educational sense and had all faiths in for say one assembly a year to discuss things on a wider scale with all th kids, just maybe we woumd be a less sectarian society for all Faith's.

[Zorro]

2 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

FFS read the thread...  Faith schools are a means of separation, whether they're used like that everywhere or jot is largely irrelevant.  The so called non denominational schools provide access for church if Scotland ministers to the children, but not other Faith's regularly or even in an organised manner.  By their very definition the catholic schools so the same for the catholic priests.

If we dumped all of this for properly non faith schools and afforded religion its proper place in the educational sense and had all faiths in for say one assembly a year to discuss things on a wider scale with all th kids, just maybe we woumd be a less sectarian society for all Faith's.

Utter drivel. Read my post above. If Scotland only had one single super school, which every kid had to attend and they all got the same lessons. They’d still fight with the other classes because they were different. 

[Beaker71]

20 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Utter drivel. Read my post above. If Scotland only had one single super school, which every kid had to attend and they all got the same lessons. They’d still fight with the other classes because they were different. 

Oh well lets do nothing then eh.

Excuses is all you have provided in most of the posts.

[Zorro]

4 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Oh well lets do nothing then eh.

Excuses is all you have provided in most of the posts.

The issue stems from the home environment. That’s what you need to tackle instead of excusing the parents and blaming it on the schools. You’re the one trying to blame the wrong people and given your earlier posts it’s not hard to conclude why. 

[Beaker71]

42 minutes ago, Zorro said:

The issue stems from the home environment. That’s what you need to tackle instead of excusing the parents and blaming it on the schools. You’re the one trying to blame the wrong people and given your earlier posts it’s not hard to conclude why. 

Geez peace, read the posts.  I'm not blaming schools, I'm saying they're part of the issue and the solution.