RAG Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, Skora11 said: If these marks were not downgraded then it would have seen the biggest increase in recent history if I am not mistaken? Correct. The headlines would be spun round 180 degrees accordingly, to the flip side of the 2 headed, SNPBAD coin. I find the yearly politicising of exam results in Scotland especially tiresome. These kids lived through the absolute worst of Tory austerity, which will have screwed up their prospects far more than any SNP mismanagement of the education system. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdevoy Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, RAG said: These kids lived through the absolute worst of Tory austerity, which will have screwed up their prospects far more than any SNP mismanagement of the education system. I'll accept your first point but I don't feel the SNP miss-management has been trivial. IMO the SNP are looking back to a time when Scots were some of the brightest most educated people on earth during the 19th century and in some way think they can re-capture that by faffing about with the education system. They are just so out of touch here it's unreal. Attainment has very, very little to do with the things they are tinkering with. It has far more to do with a general social contempt for education. In the countries currently crapping all over us in educational attainment, it is valued by society. In the UK we encourage people to treat critical thinking with contempt. The old "we've had enough of experts" battle cry. We have to get over this before we can even start to compete. The SNP are pulling all the wrong levers here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 36 minutes ago, RAG said: Correct. The headlines would be spun round 180 degrees accordingly, to the flip side of the 2 headed, SNPBAD coin. I find the yearly politicising of exam results in Scotland especially tiresome. These kids lived through the absolute worst of Tory austerity, which will have screwed up their prospects far more than any SNP mismanagement of the education system. Both as bad as one another. Scottish education has been trashed and it’s the best escape route a child will ever have from poverty. Whataboutary is unfortunately the first route the SNP supporter goes down to defend the indefensible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonbon19 Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, RAG said: Correct. The headlines would be spun round 180 degrees accordingly, to the flip side of the 2 headed, SNPBAD coin. I find the yearly politicising of exam results in Scotland especially tiresome. These kids lived through the absolute worst of Tory austerity, which will have screwed up their prospects far more than any SNP mismanagement of the education system. Like the 2 headed coin analogy , but that same coin is used on any political party on here , especially the Tory one , which to be fair mostly lands on BAAaD The SNP govt must take the blame for this as it’s their policies that the SQA are surely putting into practice ? That’s the price for governing. In my time as an employer a persons school grades played only a small part in why I employed them , that’s why interviews are held . I employed people based on that face to face meeting and often it was a “gut” feeling and how they came across at that meeting as to why I did so . I once had a conversation with a professor at Glasgow University at a MDDUS meeting who stated that school qualifications played only a small part in the selection process for university applications otherwise the medical , dental and probably the veterinarian professions would only interview straight A students , a group which I was not a member of . A favourable write up from the school and teachers carried more weight he said . This of course was 20 years ago and things may have changed . I suspect when the furore dies down and allowances are negotiated and made correctly the pupils who wanted to get to college or university will be able to do so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 It will take time to feed through, but this has been a bit if a breakthrough week with the scales falling from some people’s eyes regarding this Scottish Government. An open power struggle within, the First Minister caught misleading Parliament twice and now another kick in the nuts for poorer people in our society with the SQA debacle. It’s also increasingly irritating that Sturgeon is using her daily BBC slot as a presidential platform to discuss subjects other than covid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAG Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 @gdevoy @Mclean07CLassic example of a seemingly non education item being an important part of education, in times of austerity, is case of Marcus Rashford. He's done more for society, getting meals during the holidays, than almost any member of the House of Lords, or ANY Sportsperson that's been knighted. I don't believe in the honours system, but he should be given the highest honour for getting a Tory government to listen to him - cos of his Man United kit. After school clubs, meals, all the things trimmed round the edges of education and social care (never mind benefit cuts and low wages) impact on these kids from the outset, regardless of how they're educated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 1 minute ago, RAG said: @gdevoy @Mclean07CLassic example of a seemingly non education item being an important part of education, in times of austerity, is case of Marcus Rashford. He's done more for society, getting meals during the holidays, than almost any member of the House of Lords, or ANY Sportsperson that's been knighted. I don't believe in the honours system, but he should be given the highest honour for getting a Tory government to listen to him - cos of his Man United kit. After school clubs, meals, all the things trimmed round the edges of education and social care (never mind benefit cuts and low wages) impact on these kids from the outset, regardless of how they're educated. I agree with you, but that’s not what we’re debating. My wife was a teacher and poverty and bad parenting are huge issues. She spent half her time trying to alleviate this rather than getting to teach the kids. Her heart broke for some of them. But she also felt the effects of constant mismanagement of the Scottish Government over the years. Remember when they promised class sizes of no more than eighteen or at the beginning when they cocked up the numbers going to teacher training and caused a massive shortage? Or more recently, wasted thousands of hours getting schools to prepare for blended learning, only to go,d like a bad tent, as soon as the parents told them it wasn’t on. Every administration makes mistakes, but up until now they’ve had a free pass from a benign Scottish media. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skora11 Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, Mclean07 said: It will take time to feed through, but this has been a bit if a breakthrough week with the scales falling from some people’s eyes regarding this Scottish Government. An open power struggle within, the First Minister caught misleading Parliament twice and now another kick in the nuts for poorer people in our society with the SQA debacle. It’s also increasingly irritating that Sturgeon is using her daily BBC slot as a presidential platform to discuss subjects other than covid. With regards to the first screenshot, what was the increase on previous years pass marks before any downgrading had taken place? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAG Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, Skora11 said: With regards to the first screenshot, what was the increase on previous years pass marks before any downgrading had taken place? Big enough that the SQA had to step in to bring results into what would be considered 'normal'. Teachers aren't the SQA. Idea results would not be revised by the SQA seems without logic. Idea teachers would 'underestimate' their kids (and their own) performance, also without logic. Slight downward revision overall would seem totally normal given circumstances? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 As it is, Nat 5 is up 2.9%, Higher is 4.2% and Advanced Higher up 5.5%. I agree it'll be devastating on good pupils waiting on these results for uni courses, being judged on what school they go to, that doesn't seem fair at all, and they should be appealing all the way. But is there any milage in overestimating pupils ability rather than underestimating, saying that teachers marks should have stood and we'd have record breaking pass rates of over 90%? If our government wanted to look good, surely that's what would've happened? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker71 Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 2 hours ago, gdevoy said: Correct. Wrong. The implication of the title is "SNP not quite as perfect as some like to think". Wrong the title is bollocks, you know it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdevoy Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Beaker71 said: Wrong the title is bollocks, you know it. Which part of "the SNP is making a total bollox of education" is it you disagree with? Even Mhari Bkack agrees with me. Edited August 5, 2020 by gdevoy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker71 Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 33 minutes ago, gdevoy said: Which part of "the SNP is making a total bollox of education" is it you disagree with? Even Mhari Bkack agrees with me. No she thinks the current qualification award needs relooked at. You're making a generalisation larger than the one the SQA made. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bute-killiefan Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 Can anyone explain what the SNP tried to achieve here? It is a pretty big f**k up on their part. Can't really say it isn't... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 23 minutes ago, bute-killiefan said: Can anyone explain what the SNP tried to achieve here? It is a pretty big f**k up on their part. Can't really say it isn't... So we have evidence the SNP influenced the SQA’s methodology? Great, can you provide a link? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdevoy Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 16 minutes ago, Zorro said: So we have evidence the SNP influenced the SQA’s methodology? Great, can you provide a link? John Swinney seems to be bending himself out of shape to defend the process. Kinda really weird behaviour for a politician who thinks his party had nothing to do with something being criticisd in the meeja would you not say? "Mhairi Black, urged the SNP Government to “address” a situation causing alarm to parents and their children". Again hardly indicates the SQA are independent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undefined Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 I've no idea if the SNP are to blame or not. I do wonder if we'll see the same level of anger directed at the AQA when they issue their results in the next fortnight (which I bet will show the exact same patterns). However, it's pretty obvious to anyone with any ability to think critically that: a) Some teachers will over-estimate their pupils grades, maybe an honest mistake, wishful thinking, or perhaps they had prior knowledge that some pupils/schools were going to get f**ked over and adjusted accordingly. b) Some schools simply do perform better than others. Some teachers are better than others. The better the school, the more likely it is that they are attracting good teachers. I know I had one or two great teachers and many bang average teachers. The SQA's methodology will take this and much more into account. c) The estimated grades were clearly too high and needed to be adjusted. If they weren't adjusted then the value of a good grade to the pupils who actually deserve it is diluted and puts them at a disadvantage. d) It's very harsh to mark a student down on the basis of what school the had the misfortune of going to. I haven't actually seen anyone suggest how they'd solve the problem. Without completing the curriculum/exams - I see two ways of going about it... You either: Do what the I think the SQA have done (adjust grades based on past teacher and school performance) and you deal with any discrepancies in more detail during the appeals process. This means that the vast majority of students get their grades in a timely manner and can move on. Those who need to appeal will wait a bit longer to get their results. Or You forensically analyse each pupil, their history and come up with a bespoke grade for everyone. This means that no-one gets their grades in a timely manner. Many would still appeal anyway and you're no better off as far as I can tell. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, gdevoy said: John Swinney seems to be bending himself out of shape to defend the process. Kinda really weird behaviour for a politician who thinks his party had nothing to do with something being criticisd in the meeja would you not say? "Mhairi Black, urged the SNP Government to “address” a situation causing alarm to parents and their children". Again hardly indicates the SQA are independent. I don’t think he’s bending himself out of shape by highlighting the data shows a higher level of achievement and a narrowing of the attainment gap. Those are facts. Everything else is speculation. We could also speculate that the Scottish governments education policies have created a “golden generation” of kids, who’ve been hard done by this process. That they have overseen a system where these kids have outperformed their older peers by limiting their access to formal education. We could also speculate that the poorer performing schools all suddenly upped their game in the first part of this school year but it all seems a bit unlikely. I noted your earlier suggestion that they should’ve just overestimated everyone. What do you think the real world implications of that would’ve been? The kid who needed three highers at A and B to get into uni would suddenly have found the goalposts had moved to five highers at A became the bar had been raised. And when everyone is applying for modern apprenticeships with their handful of Nat 5’s they’d not really be any different from their peers. This isn’t a unique intervention by the SQA either. They’ve adjusted pass levels before in response to circumstances. The Maths exam a few years back you only had to get around 34% to pass because it was adjudged the test had been too difficult and too few students had passed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAG Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 19 minutes ago, gdevoy said: John Swinney seems to be bending himself out of shape to defend the process. Kinda really weird behaviour for a politician who thinks his party had nothing to do with something being criticisd in the meeja would you not say? "Mhairi Black, urged the SNP Government to “address” a situation causing alarm to parents and their children". Again hardly indicates the SQA are independent. MB is a WM MP, education is a devolved matter for the Scottish Parliament. She can say what she likes about Scottish education - in a way MSPs probably can't! 3 minutes ago, undefined said: a) Some teachers will over-estimate their pupils grades, maybe an honest mistake, wishful thinking, or perhaps they had prior knowledge that some pupils/schools were going to get f**ked over and adjusted accordingly. Teachers would see pupils every day. Good day, normal day, average day. Is less likely a teacher, knowing you every day, would ultimately judge you on a 'bad day', but we all know some exams are nightmares! If the results were revised upward by the SQA, we'd be asking why teachers underestimated their pupils abilities and let down their futures as a result. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, undefined said: I've no idea if the SNP are to blame or not. I do wonder if we'll see the same level of anger directed at the AQA when they issue their results in the next fortnight (which I bet will show the exact same patterns). However, it's pretty obvious to anyone with any ability to think critically that: a) Some teachers will over-estimate their pupils grades, maybe an honest mistake, wishful thinking, or perhaps they had prior knowledge that some pupils/schools were going to get f**ked over and adjusted accordingly. b) Some schools simply do perform better than others. Some teachers are better than others. The better the school, the more likely it is that they are attracting good teachers. I know I had one or two great teachers and many bang average teachers. The SQA's methodology will take this and much more into account. c) The estimated grades were clearly too high and needed to be adjusted. If they weren't adjusted then the value of a good grade to the pupils who actually deserve it is diluted and puts them at a disadvantage. d) It's very harsh to mark a student down on the basis of what school the had the misfortune of going to. I haven't actually seen anyone suggest how they'd solve the problem. Without completing the curriculum/exams - I see two ways of going about it... You either: Do what the I think the SQA have done (adjust grades based on past teacher and school performance) and you deal with any discrepancies in more detail during the appeals process. This means that the vast majority of students get their grades in a timely manner and can move on. Those who need to appeal will wait a bit longer to get their results. Or You forensically analyse each pupil, their history and come up with a bespoke grade for everyone. This means that no-one gets their grades in a timely manner. Many would still appeal anyway and you're no better off as far as I can tell. Excellent analysis of the situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAG Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 19 minutes ago, Zorro said: Excellent analysis of the situation. Would have been a grade A submission, had it not been for @undefineds incorrect assertion, Danish 1990s pop sensations; AQA - famous for singalong classic Barbie Girl - were in charge of the marking at the SQA this year!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewWylie Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 18 hours ago, gdevoy said: The Scottish Govenment seem to have a real flair for totally bollixing up education. And yet again today they have come up trumps with an artificial awards system lacking any credibility. Ye couldnae nake it up. are they any better on health ? mind you they are third top in one thing ...............covid deaths -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdevoy Posted August 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Zorro said: Excellent analysis of the situation. Calling marking pupils down based on the school they attend "harsh" is like saying the police were a bit rough with George Floyd. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, gdevoy said: Calling marking pupils down based on the school they attend "harsh" is like saying the police were a bit rough with George Floyd. In your alternate scenario it would’ve been like making George Floyd commissioner of police instead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheviotstag Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 1 hour ago, undefined said: I've no idea if the SNP are to blame or not. I do wonder if we'll see the same level of anger directed at the AQA when they issue their results in the next fortnight (which I bet will show the exact same patterns). However, it's pretty obvious to anyone with any ability to think critically that: a) Some teachers will over-estimate their pupils grades, maybe an honest mistake, wishful thinking, or perhaps they had prior knowledge that some pupils/schools were going to get f**ked over and adjusted accordingly. b) Some schools simply do perform better than others. Some teachers are better than others. The better the school, the more likely it is that they are attracting good teachers. I know I had one or two great teachers and many bang average teachers. The SQA's methodology will take this and much more into account. c) The estimated grades were clearly too high and needed to be adjusted. If they weren't adjusted then the value of a good grade to the pupils who actually deserve it is diluted and puts them at a disadvantage. d) It's very harsh to mark a student down on the basis of what school the had the misfortune of going to. I haven't actually seen anyone suggest how they'd solve the problem. Without completing the curriculum/exams - I see two ways of going about it... You either: Do what the I think the SQA have done (adjust grades based on past teacher and school performance) and you deal with any discrepancies in more detail during the appeals process. This means that the vast majority of students get their grades in a timely manner and can move on. Those who need to appeal will wait a bit longer to get their results. Or You forensically analyse each pupil, their history and come up with a bespoke grade for everyone. This means that no-one gets their grades in a timely manner. Many would still appeal anyway and you're no better off as far as I can tell. Agree with much of this. it is vital that the appeals process is quick, empathetic and focused on the assessed coursework of students to iron out the anomalies and any actual or perceived injustices that have taken place if appeals are done quickly students holding conditional offers for uni should still be able to take up their places on the back of successful appeals. Given that a lot of assessments between A/B and B/C are very marginal calls, it is not surprising that teachers have given the hardworking pupils under their charge the benefit of the fine margin. (Whereas in an exam situation an external examiner only sees 58% or 61% and is not relating what he/she is marking to individual circumstances) multiply the number of pupils affected by a number of courses taken by each pupil and it is not hard to see how a statistical imbalance emerges (Which might make the 75% of grades unaffected a reasonable outcome at this stage given the circumstances ) it is clear that there have been anomalies and injustices with the process so far and it is down to the appeals process to iron this out and arrive at an overall outcome that is fair and seen to be fair, as well as being statistically credible. down to SQA (with govt intervention if necessary) to ensure adequate resourcing is in place to make sure the appeals process goes well and produces a satisfactory outcome 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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