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SNP screw up education again


gdevoy

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

They are and they are not allowing appeals. We just have to gave some sort of faith in Nicola when she said they were relying on the appeals system to mitigate the worst of this, in my view criminal, social profiling, she meant it.

My original complaint was that the SNP were allowing this. It niw appears that flawed as they are, they are making a better job of it than the rest if the UK.

Have faith in Nicola :)

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1 hour ago, Beaker71 said:

I will ask again, what beyond giving all pupils the distorted grades the teachers put down, is your alternative?

 

What is happening is unacceptable. It's that simple. At least the SNP have conceded, almost, its unacceptable. I am actually praising the SNP here but that does not seem to be good enough. You want me to say the SNP are perfect and beyond criticism. 

OK, they should have been aware what the SQA was doing and told them it was unacceptable before we got here. The SQA could have weighted their analysis to compensate for their "posh school bias". But, because the SNP, like everybody else here is not perfect, they are chasing the game here.

IMO the SQA should have their arses kicked from here to John O Groats and back for getting us here and the SNP could have even more on the ball. But as I said nobody's perfect.

Edited by gdevoy
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1 minute ago, gdevoy said:

What is happening is unacceptable. It's that simple. At least the SNP have conceded, almost, its unacceptable. I am actually praising the SNP here but that does not seem to be good enough. You want me to say the SNP are perfect and beyond criticism. 

OK, they should have been aware what the SQA was doing and told them it was unacceptable before we got here. The SQA could have weighted their analysis to compensate for their "posh school bias". But, because the SNP, like everybody else here is not perfect, they are chasing the game here.

IMO the SQA should have there arses kicked from here to John O Groats and back for getting us here and the SVP could gave even more on the ball. But as I said nobody's perfect.

No I do not want you to say they’re prefect they’re far from that.  I want you to stop just saying it’s unacceptable and give us an alternative.

Having looked at this, without a massive resource increase, which wouldn’t have been possible in the pandemic, or the repurposing of senior teachers to assess each piece of work (which remember could be supplied due to COVID (some could’ve been scanned), to assess all the individual coursework.

this was the least worst option in theory, but teachers then over egged the grades, meaning a larger than normal grade normalisation was needed.  Now the individual class work will need to somehow be assessed during appeals.

teachers, the SQA and then the SNP are all complicit to varying degrees here

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On 8/5/2020 at 3:44 PM, undefined said:

I've no idea if the SNP are to blame or not.  I do wonder if we'll see the same level of anger directed at the AQA when they issue their results in the next fortnight (which I bet will show the exact same patterns).

However, it's pretty obvious to anyone with any ability to think critically that:

a) Some teachers will over-estimate their pupils grades, maybe an honest mistake, wishful thinking, or perhaps they had prior knowledge that some pupils/schools were going to get f**ked over and adjusted accordingly.

b) Some schools simply do perform better than others.  Some teachers are better than others.  The better the school, the more likely it is that they are attracting good teachers.  I know I had one or two great teachers and many bang average teachers.  The SQA's methodology will take this and much more into account.

c) The estimated grades were clearly too high and needed to be adjusted.  If they weren't adjusted then the value of a good grade to the pupils who actually deserve it is diluted and puts them at a disadvantage.

d) It's very harsh to mark a student down on the basis of what school the had the misfortune of going to.

I haven't actually seen anyone suggest how they'd solve the problem.  Without completing the curriculum/exams - I see two ways of going about it...

You either:

Do what the I think the SQA have done (adjust grades based on past teacher and school performance) and you deal with any discrepancies in more detail during the appeals process.  This means that the vast majority of students get their grades in a timely manner and can move on.  Those who need to appeal will wait a bit longer to get their results.

Or 

You forensically analyse each pupil, their history and come up with a bespoke grade for everyone.  This means that no-one gets their grades in a timely manner.  Many would still appeal anyway and you're no better off as far as I can tell.

This is a great picture of where we are.

 

The last few days are a PR nightmare for the SQA and, as a result for the SNP.

I can assure you that no other leading party would have done it any differently - there's simply not the data to support it.

Also, do people think SQA have analysed all submitted supporting evidence with Covid19 level staffing in?  People are dreaming man.  I'd pretty much guarantee nothing will be looked at outside of the appeals process.

Schools were asked to estimate results - they did.  SQA accepted those and they were verified against historical ones - which always happens at every exam board every year as part of their internal consistency measures to insure against 'easy' or 'difficult' exams - its just that the public don't usually think about it as its hidden behind the scenes.

This time the variance is the quality of teacher/school estimates, with the only comparable data being historical performance.  Emotions aside, its pretty simple really.

 

SQA has not created a "classist" response.  By running an averages algorithm they have allowed the class problems that exist in our actual schools and society to be highlighted in black and white - which for me should be the big action point to react to.  The appeals will sort themselves.

 

Incidentally 2 things will happen from the appeals process:

 

1: All of the extreme anomalies will 100% be sorted, as the evidence will have already been submitted to allow successful appeal after case by case analysis. 

Remember we are also only hearing about extremes in the rags. There might have been 26% results adjusted - but that's not 26% of students and they are not all this "A down to D, my life and career is ruined" nonsense.

 

2: Lot of appeals will fail because, through fear or opportunity, teachers have bumped up predicted results - and the collected evidence will not bear out the estimate when challenged. Also, parental consent is required for an appeal - so teachers will have earmarked loads they might want to send in - but cannot if the they are not asked.

A big problem that we now also have is the entitlement of students/parents who don't understand the relevance of the word 'estimate' and will of course hold big, bad SQA accountable, threatening lawsuits and such.  Absolute nonsense. The media in turn will blame Swinney.  He's often banged on about the 'judge me on education' so will get caught out on that politically. Doesnae bother me.

All that said - if the appeals process does not iron all this out....THAT is a major crisis in education for the year.  Right now its hotheads and bampots.(IMHO).

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Just seen this on the Killie Talk Facebook page .... don't know how it compares to previous years but the adjustments between East Ayrshire schools are quite shocking.

 

51% of the estimated grades from StJoseph's were downgraded ... and went down to 18% at Auchinleck, with the rest between 29% and 39%.

It also indicates that only some grades will be eligible for appeal ... and that some of them won't be notified until next May.

Screenshot_20200807-231556_Facebook.jpg

Screenshot_20200807-231531_Facebook.jpg

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1 hour ago, Wrangodog said:

Guardian headlines saying that 40% of A level teacher predictions will be lowered in England. Presumably SNP to blame for that too ? 

We don’t HAVE to compare everything with England. One of the things that needs to change is to judge the Scottish Government on its record and it’s effect on their their own electorate and not constant whataboutary. It’s the classic tactic that has allowed them to avoid scrutiny for over a decade. 

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

We don’t HAVE to compare everything with England. One of the things that needs to change is to judge the Scottish Government on its record and it’s effect on their their own electorate and not constant whataboutary. It’s the classic tactic that has allowed them to avoid scrutiny for over a decade. 

They have not avoided scrutiny you absolute belter.Multiplee SNP.baad attempts are.made by the unionist parties, press and the BBC daily, more.ofyen than not based on nothing but direction from their London bosses or absolute bulls**t.

They have and are still outperforming the main government and all the devolved governments on this island, despite having both hands tied behind their backs.

Edited by Beaker71
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2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

We don’t HAVE to compare everything with England. One of the things that needs to change is to judge the Scottish Government on its record and it’s effect on their their own electorate and not constant whataboutary. It’s the classic tactic that has allowed them to avoid scrutiny for over a decade. 

No whataboutery allowed, unless you're looking for some, eh? 

Classic! 9_9

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Need to wait and see how the appeals pans out. The fact that the students have the opportunity to overturn their grades can only be a good thing. The pandemic has caused many problems for all governments and as far as the Scottish government is doing Beaker71 quite rightly points out that we have been doing well considering we are trying to do a job with both hands tied behind our backs. There is no such thing as a partnership of equals as we are often told by the Unionists.

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To me it seems obvious that a lot of grades would have to be downgraded or at least adjusted here, it certainly wouldn’t be fair to have pupils allocated whatever grade their school proposed as this would lead to a very subjective result which does not compare attainment fairly across the country. A lot of people don’t seem to grasp that awarding a much increased proportion of pupils an A downgrades the value of the qualification.

To me from a purely statistical/practical point of view I understand why schools which have previously performed more poorly may have more extreme examples of results being downgraded, hopefully the appeals process will put things right for the number of pupils who will undoubtedly have been hard done by through this as those pupils who have always worked hard probably in the face of some adversity will be hardest done by through all of this debacle.

 

I do wonder if it was a good idea to apparently tell pupils of their predicted grades long before the final result was confirmed?

 

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1 hour ago, Tom061087 said:

To me it seems obvious that a lot of grades would have to be downgraded or at least adjusted here, it certainly wouldn’t be fair to have pupils allocated whatever grade their school proposed as this would lead to a very subjective result which does not compare attainment fairly across the country. A lot of people don’t seem to grasp that awarding a much increased proportion of pupils an A downgrades the value of the qualification.

To me from a purely statistical/practical point of view I understand why schools which have previously performed more poorly may have more extreme examples of results being downgraded, hopefully the appeals process will put things right for the number of pupils who will undoubtedly have been hard done by through this as those pupils who have always worked hard probably in the face of some adversity will be hardest done by through all of this debacle.

I do wonder if it was a good idea to apparently tell pupils of their predicted grades long before the final result was confirmed?

I am not questioning the methodology used. Understanding statistics myself I find the mathematical arguments quite sound. Teachers want their pupils to do well, probably more so in deprived areas. What I am questioning is the apropriateness of using such an, individual blind, methodology in an area where the outcome could rob some young people of one of the very few chances they may get from the really s**tty hand life has delt them. Or do we just say, it was a bit harsh but, hey, life is harsh so suck it up?

To those who say what else could the SQA have done I say just because you are starving doesnt make eating your own fingers becays ut us all you have got a sensible thing to do.

Nicola has said they are relying on the appeals process so I hope it is up to the job.

 

Edited by gdevoy
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18 hours ago, gdevoy said:

I am not questioning the methodology used. Understanding statistics myself I find the mathematical arguments quite sound. Teachers want their pupils to do well, probably more so in deprived areas. What I am questioning is the apropriateness of using such an, individual blind, methodology in an area where the outcome could rob some young people of one of the very few chances they may get from the really s**tty hand life has delt them. Or do we just say, it was a bit harsh but, hey, life is harsh so suck it up?

To those who say what else could the SQA have done I say just because you are starving doesnt make eating your own fingers becays ut us all you have got a sensible thing to do.

Nicola has said they are relying on the appeals process so I hope it is up to the job.

 

Or, you could just give a straight answer to that question.  Come on, give us one suggestion as to how you resolve this quickly and fairly. 

A solution that doesn't involve George Floyd or "eating your own fingers" (wtf?) will be better than anything you've offered up so far.

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3 minutes ago, undefined said:

Or, you could just give a straight answer to that question.  Come on, give us one suggestion as to how you resolve this quickly and fairly. 

A solution that doesn't involve George Floyd or "eating your own fingers" (wtf?) will be better than anything you've offered up so far.

He doesn't have one, and that's my issue with the incorrect thread title and first comment.  100% from an SNP baaad perspective. 

Was the decision flawed?  YES

Was simply accepting the teaxhers grades a sensible option?  Obviously not given the madsive increase prior to the downgrading 

Should Swinney have provided more resources to allow an appeal like review of those grades which seems out of alignment with the "norm"?  Probably, bit this begs the question was it possible or practical?

This was always a no win situation, and I'm sure the SNP were well aware of the full on Yoon SNP baaad approach coming towards them no matter what.

Christ the Mail, said the results were shameful and then a few days later also described a possible uturn as shameful!

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1 hour ago, undefined said:

A solution that doesn't involve George Floyd or "eating your own fingers" (wtf?) will be better than anything you've offered up so far.

I just dont think some people appreciate the profound life changing impact these results can have on some very vulnerable peoples' lives. 

I agree with you there was no obvious easy acceptable way forward but just to present things as "hey its a bit rough on some folks but sometimes life is just s**t" when there is absolutely no chance this will impact directly on those making these decisions is simply not acceptable.

The could have simply accepted the projected grades but they had shot off their own foot there by craping their reputation down the toilet tower the last several years by eroding standards. Maybe the government should just gave sucked it up and accepted the projections for this year. 

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22 hours ago, gdevoy said:

What I am questioning is the apropriateness of using such an, individual blind, methodology in an area where the outcome could rob some young people of one of the very few chances they may get from the really s**tty hand life has delt them. 

It seems to me from her comments today that Nicola Sturgeon agrees with the point I am making that  relying on statistical analysis was not the correct strategy here.

I am in full agreement with the leader of the SNP.  I can however see that the wording of the thread title does suggest an SNP bad message. What I was aiming for was an SNP not perfect message but may have over done it.

I await with interest the stance taken by the Westmibster government here and stick two fingers up to anybody that suggests wharaboutery.

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22 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

It seems to me from her comments today that Nicola Sturgeon agrees with the point I am making that  relying on statistical analysis was not the correct strategy here.

I am in full agreement with the leader of the SNP.  I can however see that the wording of the thread title does suggest an SNP bad message. What I was aiming for was an SNP not perfect message but may have over done it.

I await with interest the stance taken by the Westmibster government here and stick two fingers up to anybody that suggests wharaboutery.

Don’t worry, gdevoy, they’re about to fold again, like they always do whenever there’s a hint of unpopularity, in case it damages the “ultimate goal”. Of course the Greens have put Swinney’s job on the line as well. So the unfairness didn’t matter but Indy and and Swinney’s job do. 
 

6F61E183-F6AF-48ED-8D0A-E674A9D4723A.png.bc798c373e09b2b43c7a1be50ea256ae.png

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

Don’t worry, gdevoy, they’re about to fold again, like they always do whenever there’s a hint of unpopularity, in case it damages the “ultimate goal”. Of course the Greens have put Swinney’s job on the line as well. So the unfairness didn’t matter but Indy and and Swinney’s job do. 
 

6F61E183-F6AF-48ED-8D0A-E674A9D4723A.png.bc798c373e09b2b43c7a1be50ea256ae.png

avsolutely classic ultra Yoon response above.

Mistake made...  SNP Baaaaad

Mistake corrected.... SNP in Shameful U Turn

Honestly  your a total f**king parody, and must take your que from the Daily Mail or Express.

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13 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

avsolutely classic ultra Yoon response above.

Mistake made...  SNP Baaaaad

Mistake corrected.... SNP in Shameful U Turn

Honestly  your a total f**king parody, and must take your que from the Daily Mail or Express.

Changing because their own jobs and politics threatened. The kids were just to be sacrificed otherwise. Let the scales fall from your eyes, chief, they’re awful. 

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28 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

Changing because their own jobs and politics threatened.

Basically how any politics work.

Glad they've performed a u turn and glad there was plenty of discontent from SNP voters/members on it.

You'll always get folk who will never see wrong in their political party, I've said countless times Labour got away with murder for years up here as they were answerable to nobody and last thing I want is for that to happen again with the SNP.

Most of all, I'm happy that the kids should now get the grades they deserve.

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