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18 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

You don't add up mate, what part of pandemic caused by the most contagious disease we've seen here in over a century.   None of those other causes of death have the capability to overwhelm the NHS.

You're as bad as climate change deniers.

Actually the virus was downgraded back in March from  Highly Consequential Infectious Disease to nothing more than a normal influenza. Look it up and stop talking crap.

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51 minutes ago, Bigdodge said:

Actually the virus was downgraded back in March from  Highly Consequential Infectious Disease to nothing more than a normal influenza. Look it up and stop talking crap.

You need to read this. Not just the headline, read right to the end. It might help you understand why you’re comparing apples with oranges.
 

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-hcid/

PHE estimates 10,000 people die from influenza PA. The figure for COVID-19 is almost 42,000 in eight months. There isn’t a COVID-19 season, it’s year round. There isn’t a COVID-19 vaccine, there’s one available every year for flu. The 42,000 deaths are despite a full lockdown, social distancing, a greater awareness and compliance with hand hygiene, face masks... none of this happens during a flu outbreak. All  this highlights that COVID-19 is significantly more contagious than the flu. Comparing the two is unhelpful.  Look it up and stop talking crap. 
 

 

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15 minutes ago, Zorro said:

You need to read this. Not just the headline, read right to the end. It might help you understand why you’re comparing apples with oranges.
 

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-hcid/

PHE estimates 10,000 people die from influenza PA. The figure for COVID-19 is almost 42,000 in eight months. There isn’t a COVID-19 season, it’s year round. There isn’t a COVID-19 vaccine, there’s one available every year for flu. The 42,000 deaths are despite a full lockdown, social distancing, a greater awareness and compliance with hand hygiene, face masks... none of this happens during a flu outbreak. All  this highlights that COVID-19 is significantly more contagious than the flu. Comparing the two is unhelpful.  Look it up and stop talking crap. 
 

 

Aye but but..... a guy oan Facebook said. 

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1 hour ago, Zorro said:

You need to read this. Not just the headline, read right to the end. It might help you understand why you’re comparing apples with oranges.
 

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-hcid/

PHE estimates 10,000 people die from influenza PA. The figure for COVID-19 is almost 42,000 in eight months. There isn’t a COVID-19 season, it’s year round. There isn’t a COVID-19 vaccine, there’s one available every year for flu. The 42,000 deaths are despite a full lockdown, social distancing, a greater awareness and compliance with hand hygiene, face masks... none of this happens during a flu outbreak. All  this highlights that COVID-19 is significantly more contagious than the flu. Comparing the two is unhelpful.  Look it up and stop talking crap. 
 

 

I'm not comparing anything. The government website says it. This fact check website you have needs to go and do a deep dive into all the data. Instead of just disagreeing with the something somebody said as it doesnt fit the narrative. 

Fullfact states that because it's been downgraded doesnt mean it's not dangerous. 

FFS the government website even says its downgraded because the mortality levels are low over all.

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1 hour ago, Bigdodge said:

I'm not comparing anything. The government website says it. This fact check website you have needs to go and do a deep dive into all the data. Instead of just disagreeing with the something somebody said as it doesnt fit the narrative. 

Fullfact states that because it's been downgraded doesnt mean it's not dangerous. 

FFS the government website even says its downgraded because the mortality levels are low over all.


The mortality rates are “low” (how anyone consider 42,000 deaths as low btw) are because of the additional precautions, not because it’s just “the same as a normal flu”. Your failure to take in these additional factors demonstrates how easily some people can be led by an oversimplified reading of the statistics.
 

The Full fact article concisely explains why it’s been downgraded from a High Consequence Infectious Diseases (HCID) to a Public Health Emergency (PHE). A HCID is a very narrow- technical classification. Changing from a a HICD to a PHE didn’t lessen the seriousness of the outbreak, it just means it no longer meets a very narrow technical definition.
 

The flu isn’t classed as a public health emergency, but there has been an influenza pandemic preparedness strategy in place since 2011. As yet it’s  still to be used. It doesn’t advise the closing of workplaces. It doesn’t advise the closing of schools. No restrictions on foreign travel. No lockdown either nationally or locally. And predicts a £28 billion hit to the economy.  It also calculates the average person may require a week and a half to recover. Can you understand the difference now?

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3 hours ago, Zorro said:

You need to read this. Not just the headline, read right to the end. It might help you understand why you’re comparing apples with oranges.
 

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-hcid/

PHE estimates 10,000 people die from influenza PA. The figure for COVID-19 is almost 42,000 in eight months. There isn’t a COVID-19 season, it’s year round. There isn’t a COVID-19 vaccine, there’s one available every year for flu. The 42,000 deaths are despite a full lockdown, social distancing, a greater awareness and compliance with hand hygiene, face masks... none of this happens during a flu outbreak. All  this highlights that COVID-19 is significantly more contagious than the flu. Comparing the two is unhelpful.  Look it up and stop talking crap. 
 

 

A major difference with the flu is that during flu seasons in the past hospitals haven’t been told to send sick old people some of whom had tested positive for Covid back into care homes.

if anyone gives me a red card for this comment I am taking it that you find this acceptable behaviour.

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4 hours ago, Bigdodge said:

Actually the virus was downgraded back in March from  Highly Consequential Infectious Disease to nothing more than a normal influenza. Look it up and stop talking crap.

But the outbreak is still serious, right? Thinking otherwise would suggest a misunderstanding of what an HCID is, and as it also says on gov.uk, "The need to have a national, coordinated response remains".

The diseases that are listed as HCID are killing exactly no one in the UK, whereas Covid is killing tens of thousands. The Covid status was changed so that patients could be treated in local hospitals rather than the very few HCID treatment centres.

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47 minutes ago, Richaway said:

A major difference with the flu is that during flu seasons in the past hospitals haven’t been told to send sick old people some of whom had tested positive for Covid back into care homes.

if anyone gives me a red card for this comment I am taking it that you find this acceptable behaviour.

It’s fairly common for people with flu symptoms to be transferred to care homes. With adequate training and standard infection control precautions, there’s no reason why care homes can’t look after residents who’re ether showing symptoms of flu or are COVID-19 positive. 
 

As private businesses they’re also free to refuse to take patients. 

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1 hour ago, Zorro said:

It’s fairly common for people with flu symptoms to be transferred to care homes. With adequate training and standard infection control precautions, there’s no reason why care homes can’t look after residents who’re ether showing symptoms of flu or are COVID-19 positive. 
 

As private businesses they’re also free to refuse to take patients. 

So you were ok with elderly patients tested positive with Covid being shunted into care homes?

unbelievable!!!

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6 minutes ago, Richaway said:

So you were ok with elderly patients tested positive with Covid being shunted into care homes?

unbelievable!!!

Yes. But then I understand how infection control protocols should work, because I’m not an idiot. 
 

The amount of people with no training in thIs field who suddenly consider themselves experts..... unbelievable!!!

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14 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Yes. But then I understand how infection control protocols should work, because I’m not an idiot. 
 

The amount of people with no training in thIs field who suddenly consider themselves experts..... unbelievable!!!

I’m no expert but for someone to say they’d take people with Covid and place them into the places the most vulnerable are makes you sound like the idiot.

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7 minutes ago, Richaway said:

I’m no expert but for someone to say they’d take people with Covid and place them into the places the most vulnerable are makes you sound like the idiot.

Who do you think are in hospitals? I’ll give you a clue, it is the most vulnerable. The immunodeficient cancer patients, the ICU patients, patients with multiple comorbidities, the seriously ill Covid patients. It is safer to remove anyone who doesn’t need that level of care from a hospital situation during a pandemic. It takes significantly higher staffing levels to look after these types of inpatient. Care can also suffer for those not in those categories.  I’ll reiterate, with training and an understanding of infection control protocols, there is no reason mild COVID -19 symptoms cannot be managed in a care home. 

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1 minute ago, Zorro said:

Who do you think are in hospitals? I’ll give you a clue, it is the most vulnerable. The immunodeficient cancer patients, the ICU patients, patients with multiple comorbidities, the seriously ill Covid patients. It is safer to remove anyone who doesn’t need that level of care from a hospital situation during a pandemic. It takes significantly higher staffing levels to look after these types of inpatient. Care can also suffer for those not in those categories.  I’ll reiterate, with training and an understanding of infection control protocols, there is no reason mild COVID -19 symptoms cannot be managed in a care home. 

I don't care I just want back to tje fitba, I won't listen to common sense from anyone, not you, not nicola  nobody cos I'm a selfish c**t who believes covid is all a massive hoax designed to stop me watching the fitba.....

This seem pretty much to the whole argument from some on here.

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4 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Who do you think are in hospitals? I’ll give you a clue, it is the most vulnerable. The immunodeficient cancer patients, the ICU patients, patients with multiple comorbidities, the seriously ill Covid patients. It is safer to remove anyone who doesn’t need that level of care from a hospital situation during a pandemic. It takes significantly higher staffing levels to look after these types of inpatient. Care can also suffer for those not in those categories.  I’ll reiterate, with training and an understanding of infection control protocols, there is no reason mild COVID -19 symptoms cannot be managed in a care home. 

So basically you are saying get the old folk out of hospitals even after testing positive and stick them into care homes?

unbelievable!

half the deaths back in March came in care home settings and folk like you think they were worth the sacrifice just in case hospitals got too busy.

i take it none of your family were in that position.

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4 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

I don't care I just want back to tje fitba, I won't listen to common sense from anyone, not you, not nicola  nobody cos I'm a selfish c**t who believes covid is all a massive hoax designed to stop me watching the fitba.....

This seem pretty much to the whole argument from some on here.

Don’t be so f**king dramatic

hes saying he wants to go to the football FFS it’s a football forum!

if you go to work every day in amongst 100s of people then what’s wrong with sitting in the fresh air, hands fully sanatised don’t use toilets, don’t touch seats etc etc.

if your “Nicola” told you that from next week you were to wear wigs on a Wednesday there would be a shortage of wigs.

what is the end game here?

virus won’t go away, no real proof lockdowns work, no real proof they don’t either btw.

one things for certain we are in danger of losing a lot of things in life that we enjoyed in the past if this continues much longer.

 

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15 minutes ago, Richaway said:

So basically you are saying get the old folk out of hospitals even after testing positive and stick them into care homes?

unbelievable!

half the deaths back in March came in care home settings and folk like you think they were worth the sacrifice just in case hospitals got too busy.

i take it none of your family were in that position.

Yes. In the same way I’d advocate moving someone from a burning car, even if they’re wearing a seatbelt for their safety. 
 

37 COVID positive patients were moved from hospitals to the care home setting with the full knowledge and understanding of the care home. It is a perfectly simple undertaking to manage or barrier nurse a patient in a care home setting. Staff should be used to doing it from flu, norovirus, C-Diff and now coronavirus outbreaks. You’re acting like dealing with infections is a new science and only hospitals now how to deal with them. 
 

My family had to face deal with the realities of COVID every day. We weren’t sitting at home. We were on the frontline and we can do well without armchair generals, with a degree in woo-Science from Facebook university giving opinions on things they clearly don’t understand and seem to lack the mental capabilities to learn, thank you very much. 

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5 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Yes. In the same way I’d advocate moving someone from a burning car, even if they’re wearing a seatbelt for their safety. 
 

37 COVID positive patients were moved from hospitals to the care home setting with the full knowledge and understanding of the care home. It is a perfectly simple undertaking to manage or barrier nurse a patient in a care home setting. Staff should be used to doing it from flu, norovirus, C-Diff and now coronavirus outbreaks. You’re acting like dealing with infections is a new science and only hospitals now how to deal with them. 
 

My family had to face deal with the realities of COVID every day. We weren’t sitting at home. We were on the frontline and we can do well without armchair generals, with a degree in woo-Science from Facebook university giving opinions on things they clearly don’t understand and seem to lack the mental capabilities to learn, thank you very much. 

It worked out well then didnt it!!!!

half of all deaths in March came in care home settings but you continue to think it’s a good idea to knowingly send Covid into these settings.

beyond stupid!!

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1 minute ago, Richaway said:

It worked out well then didnt it!!!!

half of all deaths in March came in care home settings but you continue to think it’s a good idea to knowingly send Covid into these settings.

beyond stupid!!

It could have been worse if they’d been kept in hospital. The major cause of infection in care homes has come from community transmissions rather than hospital discharges. Many care homes who received no discharges still suffered COVID deaths. An over reliance on bank staff, inadequate training, failure to comply with hand hygiene, a  lack of PPE exacerbated the situation. However I’d suggest the single biggest issue has been that bank care workers simply don’t get paid if they’re off sick. This meant many went to work with mild symptoms. 

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9 minutes ago, Richaway said:

It worked out well then didnt it!!!!

half of all deaths in March came in care home settings but you continue to think it’s a good idea to knowingly send Covid into these settings.

beyond stupid!!

Reading into it it seems to work like this. 

Patients were moved from hospitals with open wards and many many ill people to. Residential care homes with contained living units. Its clearly easier to manage an outbreak when you can physically distance people behind walls. 

The fact that there was outbreaks in many of these homes doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do. The situation in hospitals would likely have been worse. There are other mitigating factors such as individual care home performance that has seen at least one I know of taken into public ownership. Others had no outbreaks at all. 

At no point is it supposed to be a silver bullet. You seem to see everthing as black and white and are coming across badly. You seem to put a lot on people dying in care homes as the be all and end all of the argument when it comes to any decision making yet are basically saying f**k the vulnerable I want to go to the fitba. You maybe need to balance your views a little 

 

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5 minutes ago, Zorro said:

It could have been worse if they’d been kept in hospital..

However I’d suggest the single biggest issue has been that bank care workers simply don’t get paid if they’re off sick. This meant many went to work with mild symptoms. 

You reckon that was an even bigger factor than the lack of PPE?  At time, lack of PPE was all over media.  Not suggesting you're doing so, but is a lot of the revisionist, blame the pawns, rather than big bosses narrative, in leu of a proper understanding of how to deal with the pandemic, which is at best, still totally elusive another 9 months on.

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3 minutes ago, RAG said:

You reckon that was an even bigger factor than the lack of PPE?  At time, lack of PPE was all over media.  Not suggesting you're doing so, but is a lot of the revisionist, blame the pawns, rather than big bosses narrative, in leu of a proper understanding of how to deal with the pandemic, which is at best, still totally elusive another 9 months on.

Don’t get me wrong. I completely blame the big bosses  If you’re putting people in the position of choosing between not being able to afford to feed their kids or going to their work feeling a bit rubbish, most folk will choose to prioritise their kids and go to work feeling rubbish. It’s human nature. 
 

The inherent flaw in the care system is  the need to keep business costs down so profits are maximised. This relates equally to PPE supplies and sick pay. The Just in time approach to stock management and staffing compromises patient safety. When profits come before people in a pandemic there will be casualties.  

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24 minutes ago, Zorro said:

When profits come before people in a pandemic there will be casualties.  

True. The early massive miscalculation, that the pandemic would be compatible to a bad seasonal flu, when Covid is exponentially more infectious than flu, also screwed things up on a macro level, we probably don't even understand yet.

For example if all planes had been grounded in Feb, would it have been better long term for aviation, never mind containing covid?  Never had a pandemic in a globalised world until 2020.

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