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How would you pay for Covid ?


Bonbon19

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3 hours ago, Killiepies said:

Stop the tax relieve on pensions,tax the top earners at 75% ,increase corporation tax ,cap public sector wages at £100k and cut overseas aid.Thats a start 

Where to start? Top earners can afford clever lawyers. Trying to get them to pay tax is like trying to get blood from a stone and we need soft targets.

Capping public sector pay just drives the most talented people in to the private sector.

Investing money ovéseas is our best defense against foreign  terrorism and mass immigration issues.

 

Edited by gdevoy
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20 hours ago, RAG said:

Any discussion about radically re-altering the UK tax system is pointless.  It ain't gonna happen in a radical enough manner, overthrowing 40 years of Thatcherite low tax, low wage, free market led economics, to improve the lot of most in the 5th most unequal country on Earth - especially under a Tory government. 

If we don’t address the elephant in the room of the tax system, we’re doomed to keep making the same mistakes. If you look at something like Ricardo’s law it becomes clear why the U.K. government is so keen on ‘pooling’ the majority of resources in certain areas. It’s all to do with property values and in maintaining or growing the wealth for a select few. “Ah but the rich pay more in tax” I hear you say. Yes this is true, but because we use the public purse to build schools, hospitals, leisure centres, museums, library’s etc in their areas. This pushes up the their property values and this acts to counteract any wealth they lose through taxes. So who is paying for all our services? The people renting through private landlords, social housing etc. They bare the brunt of loosing through the tax system. They still pay the same percentages in taxes but don’t receive anything in way of the property bonus of the wealthiest property owners. That’s why we need to move to a land value tax. It is not only the fairest system but also acts to redistribute wealth and opens up more opportunities for children who would previously have been brought up in poverty. 

Edited by Zorro
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11 hours ago, gdevoy said:

Capping public sector pay just drives the most talented people in to the private sector.

This happens already anyway and for way more reasons than financial ones. I was offered a significant rise from my job in  the private sector to a a similar role in public sector and i wouldn't have touched it with a bargepole. 

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1 hour ago, stumack said:

This happens already anyway and for way more reasons than financial ones. I was offered a significant rise from my job in  the private sector to a a similar role in public sector and i wouldn't have touched it with a bargepole. 

Why not cap private sector wages instead, to encourage the most talented Individuals into the public sector, where their skills would be beneficial to the whole population rather than just a wealthy few?

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I think if we were part of a large economic bloc giving us access to a free-market which could genuinely compete on a global stage and encourage free movement of people to ensure effective employment throughout that bloc where, after circa half a century of evolution, manufacturing, services etc had gravitated towards the most effective places for them to be located, we could recover from the Covid crisis fairly quickly.

....oh- wait a minute..

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The problem as I see it is that 66% of tax revenue comes from NI , income tax and VAT ,all the rest are quite small amounts in comparison . Without a major overhaul of one of the most complicated tax systems in the world and a lock put on these changes that can’t be altered for a set time limit or until the deficit is reduced by a certain % or amount then we will have to nibble away at it for many decades . 
I do quite like the idea of a land tax , Id expand the range of the Digital services tax , I’d apply an online tax to every online transaction to help our high streets , I’d tax the profit you could make on the sale of your main residence after eg 250K and I’d raise corporation tax to just below the EU average . 

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5 hours ago, Zorro said:

Why not cap private sector wages instead, to encourage the most talented Individuals into the public sector, where their skills would be beneficial to the whole population rather than just a wealthy few?

How can you do that? It's impossible for government to place any limit on what private companies pay their top earners. Doesn't matter what government do private multinationals find ways around it. Hence the Rangers fiasco with the Employee Benefits Trust loans.

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3 hours ago, plunkit said:

I think if we were part of a large economic bloc giving us access to a free-market which could genuinely compete on a global stage and encourage free movement of people to ensure effective employment throughout that bloc where, after circa half a century of evolution, manufacturing, services etc had gravitated towards the most effective places for them to be located, we could recover from the Covid crisis fairly quickly.

....oh- wait a minute..

My point exactly. Why in the name of heaven did Cameron let the great unwashed voice their extremely uninformed opinion on this.  

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9 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

How can you do that? It's impossible for government to place any limit on what private companies pay their top earners. Doesn't matter what government do private multinationals find ways around it. Hence the Rangers fiasco with the Employee Benefits Trust loans.

Just put a 100% tax rate on earnings above x amount. 

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4 hours ago, Zorro said:

Why not cap private sector wages instead, to encourage the most talented Individuals into the public sector, where their skills would be beneficial to the whole population rather than just a wealthy few?

Because, to me,  it's not all about money,it's about behaviours. It was all behaviours that drove me away from joining the public sector, i've seen too many "managers" and C level people go into public sector, try and change the way public sector works and then still you end up with real work not being done while people fight over which budget the paper clips come out of. So many good people in public sector kept down and so many arseholes in it for a job for life and to hell with making it better. 

And "being beneficial to the wealthy few" is a far too limited view on it. I do IT security for a bank for example, yes my skills could transfer to a public sector role easily but should those companies be forced to accept lower grade candidates?

 

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50 minutes ago, stumack said:

Because, to me,  it's not all about money,it's about behaviours. It was all behaviours that drove me away from joining the public sector, i've seen too many "managers" and C level people go into public sector, try and change the way public sector works and then still you end up with real work not being done while people fight over which budget the paper clips come out of. So many good people in public sector kept down and so many arseholes in it for a job for life and to hell with making it better. 
 

This seems to be an argument for raising public sector wages; to attract the best and brightest, rather than one against it. Good managers can get their employees to engage with change. Great ones can change the whole culture of the workplace. Crap ones will blame everyone else for nothing changing. 

50 minutes ago, stumack said:

And "being beneficial to the wealthy few" is a far too limited view on it. I do IT security for a bank for example, yes my skills could transfer to a public sector role easily but should those companies be forced to accept lower grade candidates?

 

IT security is akin to being the bouncer on the VIP section of a nightclub. You can pretend you’re there to protect everyone but the reality is it’s only about protecting the rich. 

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5 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Good managers can get their employees to engage with change. Great ones can change the whole culture of the workplace. Crap ones will blame everyone else for nothing changing. 

After 38 years in the private sector my experience of the management message accompanying "change" in the workplace is ....... 

The way to climb the management greasy pole is to fully embrace any completely pointless new way of doing things that the managing directors idiot relative has proposed.

Change can be and usually is painful. 75% of the time it is unnessesary and only introduced to help somebody advance their career. And in a further 75% of the cases where it is required it only benefits the business as a whole and not the individual tasked with embracing it. Is it any surprise there is resistance to it?

14 minutes ago, Zorro said:

IT security is akin to being the bouncer on the VIP section of a nightclub. You can pretend you’re there to protect everyone but the reality is it’s only about protecting the rich. 

 Dunno if I would have used the word "only" but I would go with "principally".  

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13 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

After 38 years in the private sector my experience of the management message accompanying "change" in the workplace is ....... 

The way to climb the management greasy pole is to fully embrace any completely pointless new way of doing things that the managing directors idiot relative has proposed.

Change can be and usually is painful. 75% of the time it is unnessesary and only introduced to help somebody advance their career. And in a further 75% of the cases where it is required it only benefits the business as a whole and not the individual tasked with embracing it. Is it any surprise there is resistance to it?

In my experience working in both the public and private sectors; a viewpoint held by an unsurprisingly large percentage of lower management types. I wonder why that is?

Quote

 Dunno if I would have used the word "only" but I would go with "principally".  

I’d suggest the IT security is there to protect wealth. Either to prevent the rich losing it through fraud or to protect them against losing any of it through litigation and compensation claims for inadequately protecting the savings and data of their customers. 

Edited by Zorro
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27 minutes ago, Zorro said:

This seems to be an argument for raising public sector wages; to attract the best and brightest, rather than one against it. Good managers can get their employees to engage with change. Great ones can change the whole culture of the workplace. Crap ones will blame everyone else for nothing changing. 

I tend to agree with your 1st sentence but when the good or great managers encounter a ingrained culture that is very resistant to change it’s almost impossible . I’ve encountered this in the NHS from both sides of the public private coin in my position as an Are Clinical Forum member and anecdotally from a patient who left the private sector to work in the management structure of AAHB . He was “headhunted “ of sorts by the CEO at the time and his exact words were to me after 9 months was that it was soul destroying trying to get anything done . He met with resistance to many initiatives, he didn’t give details , and eventually resigned . He told me he got very little support from the board , even the CEO who hired him ! I’ve no insight to his talents good or bad but he was hired soon after by a major engineering firm almost immediately. 
Attracting good managers to the public sector is difficult , the monetary rewards pale in comparison to comparable private sector jobs unless you’re an altruistic person or perhaps the lure of other baubles is your bag 

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14 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

I tend to agree with your 1st sentence but when the good or great managers encounter a ingrained culture that is very resistant to change it’s almost impossible . I’ve encountered this in the NHS from both sides of the public private coin in my position as an Are Clinical Forum member and anecdotally from a patient who left the private sector to work in the management structure of AAHB . He was “headhunted “ of sorts by the CEO at the time and his exact words were to me after 9 months was that it was soul destroying trying to get anything done . He met with resistance to many initiatives, he didn’t give details , and eventually resigned . He told me he got very little support from the board , even the CEO who hired him ! I’ve no insight to his talents good or bad but he was hired soon after by a major engineering firm almost immediately. 
 

Exactly why i don't work in the public sector. 

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any changes in the tax regime will just create new opportunities for accounts to find new loopholes/avoidance measures.

the only tax changes people want are those that they wont pay or expect not to pay in the future.

the revenue service lacks man power, employ more people at Inland revenue and let them enforce the rules as they are. this will increase the take without creating any new problems.

 

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29 minutes ago, Bhamkillieken said:

any changes in the tax regime will just create new opportunities for accounts to find new loopholes/avoidance measures.

the only tax changes people want are those that they wont pay or expect not to pay in the future.

the revenue service lacks man power, employ more people at Inland revenue and let them enforce the rules as they are. this will increase the take without creating any new problems.

 

Thats the spirit  its f**ked  but if we fix it people will find new ways to f**k it, so lets do f**k all.

The UK is one of the most corrupt nation states om earth, the Tax system is deliberately complex to allow numerous loopholes for the rich and big business.  But hey let's get the little people to pay even more eh.  Its thr Tory way.

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