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Covid chat (split from Brexit)


Beaker71

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4 hours ago, Wrangodog said:

No it isn't as are other vaccines, but do we want polio to reappear in this country ? Uptake in measles vaccinations has declined with the result that the UK is no longer measles-free. It is a choice but it is equally a choice whether to let unvaccinated people into grounds. There are only going to be a very few occasions when we have 10,000 seated fans in Rugby Park so I don't see this affecting us too much anyway.

It is a choice, and one that has been taken. Unvaccinated people can be let into grounds now. I was in a busy section of the East Stand on Saturday, and surrounded in all directions, no empty seats. I don't need to prove my vaccination status. We draw Rangers or Celtic in the cup, and surrounded by the same people, in the same seats, I now have to produce evidence of my vaccination status. I'm sure it's a coincidence that this was announced after the Old Firm game.

And why? Surely the point is to prevent transmission? It isn't unreasonable for a double jabbed fitba fan to think they have a cold when they have covid, and off they trot. They get in because of their QR code, but spread the virus. I could almost see the point if vaccination rates were low, but they're not. They're spectacularly high, so they're asking people to prove something that 90% of people have. It's absurd.

We're at a point again, where the Scottish Government have relaxed the rules, and then start wagging the finger at us for following the relaxed rules. Jason Leitch this week hinted that we might have to reimpose some restrictions, whilst in the same breath saying the modelling said this rise in cases would happen. You know, just like it did before they sent students to uni and then blamed the students for the rise in cases. I naturally blame things on incompetence rather than malice, but they make it bloody harder and harder to do so.

 

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4 hours ago, Big sexy said:

Poor analogy regarding alcohol makes no sense .Even with the vaccines the cases rise does that not seem odd .we have more cases now than last year without the vaccine but aye lets lock out people from society .Maybe they should tackle the heart of the problem that we are an unhealthy nation of drinkers and smokers whos bodies cant handle an illness like covid but we decide to shut down gyms instead of fast food joints when it all kicked off 

My daughter tested positive last week. She has had both doses of the vaccine so the only symptoms were a sore throat and the loss of her sense of smell. The vaccine did it's job, it prevented the infection from being far more serious. That's all we can ask, that the vaccine stops people from being admitted to hospital, being taken into intensive care, or worst of all, dying. Being fit doesn't guarantee that you won't be seriously ill if you catch Covid it only means you will have a slightly better chance of surviving. 

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18 minutes ago, Scooby_Doo said:

It is a choice, and one that has been taken. Unvaccinated people can be let into grounds now. I was in a busy section of the East Stand on Saturday, and surrounded in all directions, no empty seats. I don't need to prove my vaccination status. We draw Rangers or Celtic in the cup, and surrounded by the same people, in the same seats, I now have to produce evidence of my vaccination status. I'm sure it's a coincidence that this was announced after the Old Firm game.

And why? Surely the point is to prevent transmission? It isn't unreasonable for a double jabbed fitba fan to think they have a cold when they have covid, and off they trot. They get in because of their QR code, but spread the virus. I could almost see the point if vaccination rates were low, but they're not. They're spectacularly high, so they're asking people to prove something that 90% of people have. It's absurd.

We're at a point again, where the Scottish Government have relaxed the rules, and then start wagging the finger at us for following the relaxed rules. Jason Leitch this week hinted that we might have to reimpose some restrictions, whilst in the same breath saying the modelling said this rise in cases would happen. You know, just like it did before they sent students to uni and then blamed the students for the rise in cases. I naturally blame things on incompetence rather than malice, but they make it bloody harder and harder to do so.

 

They relaxed the rules but hoped that people that had that newfound freedom would get vaccinated. In some people's eyes this meant that Covid was over and we were back to normal. So the vaccination rates fell, particularly among the younger age groups, and the rates and hospitalisations rose rapidly. Rates rising doesn't actually mean that much if people are vaccinated, because they don't turn into numbers in hospital or intensive care.The lowest uptake of the vaccine is in 18-29 year olds, they are way below the 90% that you mention, 70% first dose which falls to 50% having had the second dose and that group is the most socially active of all adults.

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5 hours ago, Wrangodog said:

My daughter tested positive last week. She has had both doses of the vaccine so the only symptoms were a sore throat and the loss of her sense of smell. The vaccine did it's job, it prevented the infection from being far more serious. That's all we can ask, that the vaccine stops people from being admitted to hospital, being taken into intensive care, or worst of all, dying. Being fit doesn't guarantee that you won't be seriously ill if you catch Covid it only means you will have a slightly better chance of surviving. 

Im sorry to hear that regarding your daughter catching it but there was every chance that she would have the same outcome without the vaccine.

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4 hours ago, Big sexy said:

Im sorry to hear that regarding your daughter catching it but there was every chance that she would have the same outcome without the vaccine.

That has a similarity to saying to somebody who has just copleted a parachute jump, "there is every chance you would have survived without a parachute".

Actually we are not absolutely clear on how much protection the vaccine provides. But even in the unlikely event it is virtually none I am still really quite confused as to why people who are perfectly happy to consume:

1) Processed meals from supermarkets and takeaways, containing additives they are totally unaware of and have no knowledge of the impact on their metabolism 

2) Alchohol

3) Probably canabis and heaven only knows what else

 are so horified about something which has been tested on about 60 million adults in the UK already without any reports of any significant negative outcomes.

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58 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

That has a similarity to saying to somebody who has just copleted a parachute jump, "there is every chance you would have survived without a parachute".

Actually we are not absolutely clear on how much protection the vaccine provides. But even in the unlikely event it is virtually none I am still really quite confused as to why people who are perfectly happy to consume:

1) Processed meals from supermarkets and takeaways, containing additives they are totally unaware of and have no knowledge of the impact on their metabolism 

2) Alchohol

3) Probably canabis and heaven only knows what else

 are so horified about something which has been tested on about 60 million adults in the UK already without any reports of any significant negative outcomes.

It seems on the whole they are also quite happy with the idea of taking ivermectin. 

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27 minutes ago, Scooby_Doo said:

'Ms Sturgeon said on Wednesday that although the hospitality industry as a whole would not be included in the certification scheme that decision would be kept under review.'

Based on her previous record then, you will have to provide medical records to get into pubs and restaurants fairly soon.

If someone unvaccinated goes in and spreads the virus in a busy pub that increases risks for everyone in there and therefore a bad thing surely Scooby? 

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Current rules for entrance to a pub or restaurant (including beer gardens) in the Czech Republic:

A customer (this does not apply to children under 6 years of age) may enter the garden and indoor areas of the dining facility as long as he/she does not have symptoms of covid-19 and can demonstrate, upon possible inspection by a health officer or police officer, that he/she meets at least one of the conditions:

  • fully vaccinated (14 days after 2nd jab, or 1st in the case of Johnson)
  • negative test result (PCR in the last 7 days or antigen within the last 72 hours)
  • you have tested positive for covid within the past 180 days *** and since tested negative of course. ?
Edited by Prahakillie
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1 hour ago, Prahakillie said:

Current rules for entrance to a pub or restaurant (including beer gardens) in the Czech Republic:

A customer (this does not apply to children under 6 years of age) may enter the garden and indoor areas of the dining facility as long as he/she does not have symptoms of covid-19 and can demonstrate, upon possible inspection by a health officer or police officer, that he/she meets at least one of the conditions:

  • fully vaccinated (14 days after 2nd jab, or 1st in the case of Johnson)
  • negative test result (PCR in the last 7 days or antigen within the last 72 hours)
  • you have tested positive for covid within the past 180 days

I don't see anything unreasonable at that policy. Seems sensible to protect folk. Maybe we just need to get into our heads that this is the new reality and accept it. 

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Vaccination passports are a sensible step to take.

I was listening to BBC Scotland on the way home. They interviewed several members of the public, all of whom were in favour.

Seemingly not content with that, they wheeled out their "expert" panel which  consisted of a spokesperson for night-time industries (obviously in the huff) and two solicitors who worked on employment law, to say it was a bad idea. 

If the BBC truly wanted balance, then where were the epidemiologists, NHS workers or even Head Teachers to point out that cases are rising again and pressure is growing rapidly on the NHS?

 

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3 minutes ago, Mogwai said:

If the BBC truly wanted balance, 

Ha ha thats a belter....  UK pravda is what it is.  BBC IN Scotland it should be called, its an establishment propaganda tool, which masquerades as a so called independent public service broadcaster, when it serves the needs and wants of the 1% and the establishment.

One of the first things in an independent Scotland that needs torn apart and given proper independence to report from a straight down the middle perspective, no government involvement at all, and certainly no foreign government involvement as is currently the case.

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3 hours ago, Shropshire_killie said:

If someone unvaccinated goes in and spreads the virus in a busy pub that increases risks for everyone in there and therefore a bad thing surely Scooby? 

Someone vaccinated can do the same. It may be less likely, but they can still do it. We have a 90/72 per cent rate for doses, and we're breaking daily case total records with regularity. Do you think that is all unvaccinated people? It doesn't add up.

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5 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Ha ha thats a belter....  UK pravda is what it is.  BBC IN Scotland it should be called, its an establishment propaganda tool, which masquerades as a so called independent public service broadcaster, when it serves the needs and wants of the 1% and the establishment.

One of the first things in an independent Scotland that needs torn apart and given proper independence to report from a straight down the middle perspective, no government involvement at all, and certainly no foreign government involvement as is currently the case.

There will never be an independent scotland with sturgeon in charge 

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10 minutes ago, Mogwai said:

Vaccination passports are a sensible step to take.

In what way are they sensible? What do they achieve? They don't guarantee that people won't spread the virus in the premises they go into. They add cost to the businesses themselves, who have had a hard time of it as it is, and they will get reduced footfall because some people won't have the app, or can't be arsed with the hassle.

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1 hour ago, Shropshire_killie said:

I don't see anything unreasonable at that policy. Seems sensible to protect folk. Maybe we just need to get into our heads that this is the new reality and accept it. 

We don't need to accept Government overreaching and using a crisis as an excuse.

They didn't need proof of negative tests when they were paying for half of our lunches last year, at a time when there was no vaccine. They don't need them now.

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7 minutes ago, Scooby_Doo said:

 

Someone vaccinated can do the same. It may be less likely, but they can still do it. We have a 90/72 per cent rate for doses, and we're breaking daily case total records with regularity. Do you think that is all unvaccinated people? It doesn't add up.

I get your point Scooby and I ain't having a go at you because I'm first to question why infection and deaths are so high compared to last year when there was no vaccine at all. It needs clarification but there is jacks**t info coming out of UK govt so I totally understand the Scottish govts seemingly more cautious approach. Personally playing in a pub band, I'd be happier knowing everyone attending is vaccinated but of course acknowledging that also has risk. If it's a lesser risk them that's good imo.

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1 hour ago, Shropshire_killie said:

I get your point Scooby and I ain't having a go at you because I'm first to question why infection and deaths are so high compared to last year when there was no vaccine at all. It needs clarification but there is jacks**t info coming out of UK govt so I totally understand the Scottish govts seemingly more cautious approach. Personally playing in a pub band, I'd be happier knowing everyone attending is vaccinated but of course acknowledging that also has risk. If it's a lesser risk them that's good imo.

I know you're not having a go at me, that's what discussion is all about! I understand why people might think a passport is a good idea at face value but in this case it isn't a more cautious approach. It's totally unnecessary bureaucracy to try and strongarm younger people into getting vaccinated more quickly.

Edited by Scooby_Doo
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There’s strong evidence that Covid vaccination doesn’t stop you getting infected or indeed passing it to others . Vaccine passports won’t stop this either . If fact they might lull people into a false sense of security and persuade them to act in a more outrageous manner and exacerbate the problem . 
We know from data that the effectiveness of vaccination wears off after 6 months , where does this leave our “ passport” ,  will it have to be renewed after your booster ? Will some venues only let in those with a double/triple/quadruple vaccination certificate , this could lead to the establishment of various levels of VVVIP rooms in nightclubs . (Verified Vaccination VIP ). It’s senseless bureaucracy IMO 

Another  problem with this is that the UK isnt an ID card type nation unlike a lot of other countries where it’s commonplace . We’re not comfortable with being asked for our “papers”. It’s one thing having reams of paper to get to Fuengirola quite another to get a table at The Long House . 

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5 hours ago, Scooby_Doo said:

In what way are they sensible? What do they achieve? They don't guarantee that people won't spread the virus in the premises they go into. They add cost to the businesses themselves, who have had a hard time of it as it is, and they will get reduced footfall because some people won't have the app, or can't be arsed with the hassle.

 

Double vaccinated people are less likely to catch the virus than unvaccinated people.

Double vaccinated people transmit the Delta variant apparently just as readily as unvaccinated, but are infectious for a shorter period of time.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html

I can see the business point of view, but in the grand scheme of things, I think it's more important to encourage more people to get vaccinated.

Which makes me think it's a sensible move from the government.

They've tried asking nicely, but some folk are resistant to getting vaccinated and their decision puts themselves and others at greater risk. This a nice  incentive.

 

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2 hours ago, Bonbon19 said:

There’s strong evidence that Covid vaccination doesn’t stop you getting infected or indeed passing it to others . Vaccine passports won’t stop this either . If fact they might lull people into a false sense of security and persuade them to act in a more outrageous manner and exacerbate the problem . 
We know from data that the effectiveness of vaccination wears off after 6 months , where does this leave our “ passport” ,  will it have to be renewed after your booster ? Will some venues only let in those with a double/triple/quadruple vaccination certificate , this could lead to the establishment of various levels of VVVIP rooms in nightclubs . (Verified Vaccination VIP ). It’s senseless bureaucracy IMO 

Another  problem with this is that the UK isnt an ID card type nation unlike a lot of other countries where it’s commonplace . We’re not comfortable with being asked for our “papers”. It’s one thing having reams of paper to get to Fuengirola quite another to get a table at The Long House . 

Seatbelts and airbags in cars reduce the risk of serious injury or death. 

They don't guarantee you'll survive. The risk is always there, but they manage it, to try to tip the odds of survival in your favour.

However, there are a small number of cases where seatbelts or airbags have been contributing factors in the death of occupants. 

Wearing seatbelts is now mandatory and not doing so is punishable by a fine. Many people were up in arms about this at the time, claiming it was an infringement of their civil liberties. But then the evidence that it was working was compelling.

Should we get rid of seatbelts and airbags as well because they are not 100% efficient?

 

 

I don't know much about medicine, epidemiology or the biochemistry of vaccines, but I do know that it's more subtle than black and white. It's about reducing the risk as much as we can for the good of everyone.

There's strong evidence that the vaccination reduces the chance of catching it, and whereas transmissibility is the same, the infectious period is less in vaccinated people. 

Medical workers I know think it will be around for a while. Which means like the flu Jag, we could well need to get topped up every 6/12 months. So I guess the passport will need to be kept up to date too.

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8 hours ago, killie billies pal said:

The difference is that there is no one in there unvaccinated to have a much greater chance of severe illness or death. 

Vaccinated people are still dying .Every individual case is diifferent some people dont even know they have it. Cases will still rise and soon u will need a passport to go to a pub or the cinema and then they will want  kids vaccinated and you will be getting boosters till the day we die .Seems the conspiracy theorists were right after all loonballs ?‍♂️

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