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Covid chat (split from Brexit)


Beaker71

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1 hour ago, Bonbon19 said:

Not with Covid passports . Possibly booster vaccinations will help . 
This virus has shown that it surges to a peak then declines naturally without interventions, perhaps we just need to ensure that the NHS , which was never overwhelmed even earlier in the year , is adequately funded and staffed . Which is no bad thing . 

Booster vaccinations are only going to help those that have already been vaccinated. Yes, adequately fund and staff the NHS but that isn't going to happen overnight. Maybe having a shorter qualification for nurses with more practical experience rather than just the degree course. There should be a drive to try and reach the age groups that haven't been taking up the vaccinations using people that they can identify with rather than an older, unfunny, comedian. 

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2 hours ago, Bonbon19 said:

Not with Covid passports . Possibly booster vaccinations will help . 
This virus has shown that it surges to a peak then declines naturally without interventions, perhaps we just need to ensure that the NHS , which was never overwhelmed even earlier in the year , is adequately funded and staffed . Which is no bad thing . 

We must have different definitions of overwhelmed. To me when SHDU, MHDU, recovery and theatres are being used for ICU patients that’s overwhelmed. When operations and diagnostic procedures are being cancelled that’s overwhelmed. When specialised ICU nurses are supervising untrained ICU nurses that’s overwhelmed. When staff need to frequently miss breaks and work well beyond their contracted hours just to maintain safe staffing levels that’s overwhelmed. If you believe none of that did happen, you need to ask more questions. 

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3 hours ago, Bonbon19 said:

... perhaps we just need to ensure that the NHS , which was never overwhelmed even earlier in the year , is adequately funded and staffed . Which is no bad thing . 

I'm struggling with your definition of "not overwhelmed". The number of routine procedures in the waiting queue is rising exponentially to the extent that chronic conditions are rapidly becoming acute and a lack of cancer diagnosis is turning routine cases into fatalities. On the current trajectory this ain't going to ease up any time soon. And throwing money at the problem wont work because there simply are not enough medics available to deal with the surge.

The current let it rip strategy is seriously irresponsible and will have to be reversed at some point. The only question is how many will due before we get there.

Edited by gdevoy
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26 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

 

The current let it rip strategy is seriously irresponsible and will have to be reversed at some point. The only question is how many will due before we get there.

Perhaps the strategy makes sense if as many vulnerable folk die now as possible and more folk vaccinated supposedly easing the pressure come winter. This shows a lack of duty of care by govt to those most likely to die which is probably of no surprise to some of us and may look shameful in the months to come. Those dying now are clearly expendable. Oh how proud it is to be British. 

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1 hour ago, Zorro said:

We must have different definitions of overwhelmed. To me when SHDU, MHDU, recovery and theatres are being used for ICU patients that’s overwhelmed. When operations and diagnostic procedures are being cancelled that’s overwhelmed. When specialised ICU nurses are supervising untrained ICU nurses that’s overwhelmed. When staff need to frequently miss breaks and work well beyond their contracted hours just to maintain safe staffing levels that’s overwhelmed. If you believe none of that did happen, you need to ask more questions. 

 

14 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I'm struggling with your definition of "not overwhelmed". The number of routine procedures in the waiting queue is rising exponentially to the extent that chronic conditions are rapidly becoming acute and a lack of cancer diagnosis is turning routine cases into fatalities. On the current trajectory this ain't going to ease up any time soon. And throwing money at the problem wont work because there simply are not enough medics available to deal with the surge.

The current let it rip strategy is seriously irresponsible and will have to be reversed at some point. The only question is how many will due before we get there.

The ICUs were never overwhelmed according to govt figures ,they were expanded to meet demand yet the Nightingale hospitals sat largely unused .
 I agree that it resulted in all of your observations but wasn’t it Leitch and Handcock who went on national TV to proclaim that the NHS ,especially in relation to GPs and A/E s was open ? 
The fact that GPs were torn between the Covid restrictions and regulations , GMC guidelines , BMA guidelines and the desire to see patients didn’t help. In a recent BMC report they looked at the guidelines from 15 countries and all recommended cancelling face to face consults , easier drug renewal procedures but they should remain in contact with patients with chronic disease . Hence the increase in online consults.

Speaking to some GP’s they feel that they were underused in the pandemic and could have contributed to the secondary care sector . 

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32 minutes ago, Shropshire_killie said:

Perhaps the strategy makes sense if as many vulnerable folk die now as possible and more folk vaccinated supposedly easing the pressure come winter. This shows a lack of duty of care by govt to those most likely to die which is probably of no surprise to some of us and may look shameful in the months to come. Those dying now are clearly expendable. Oh how proud it is to be British. 

Im not sure what you expect? Perpetual full lockdown? Because thats the only thing thats ever effected spread. However its only holds spread back until you re open. Essentially it bought time to administer vaccines. 

The vaccines work. Its keeping deaths low (lets remember the definition of a Covid death is quite vague in that you simply need to have died within 28days of a positive test, that doesn't say its the reason for the death.)

Whats your suggestion? Halt the lifes of the vast majority forevermore? The vulnerable are vulnerable some because of illness some because they are simple very very old. People are going to die like people have always died. We are not talking about people being expendable anymore. We are talking about people being succeptable to illness now like they alway have been. 

Whats your solution? 

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Just now, Prahakillie said:

An attempt to look like they were doing something?

Very likely , I have anecdotal evidence that a few of the medical professionals who volunteered to return to the NHS were not utilised properly. The Louisa Jordan although used for the vaccination programme laterally had  , I’m told , staff sitting about doing nothing for weeks . I have no verification of this claim or the numbers . 

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46 minutes ago, cammy_boy said:

Whats your solution? 

Legal requirement for masks in retail outlets. Vaccine passports for venues with close contact interactions like dance venues and football crowds. Lateral flow rests for all entering care homes and residences of the vulnerable.

All of the above would reduce the pressure on the NHS and allow a focus on the backlog.

IMO the decision to sweep all of this away is not driven by a desire to prevent our economy crashing but simply to boost the profits of large corporations many of which BoJos chums have substantial financial interests in.

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1 hour ago, cammy_boy said:

Im not sure what you expect? Perpetual full lockdown? Because thats the only thing thats ever effected spread. However its only holds spread back until you re open. Essentially it bought time to administer vaccines. 

The vaccines work. Its keeping deaths low (lets remember the definition of a Covid death is quite vague in that you simply need to have died within 28days of a positive test, that doesn't say its the reason for the death.)

Whats your suggestion? Halt the lifes of the vast majority forevermore? The vulnerable are vulnerable some because of illness some because they are simple very very old. People are going to die like people have always died. We are not talking about people being expendable anymore. We are talking about people being succeptable to illness now like they alway have been. 

Whats your solution? 

See gdevoys response. I'm not saying life should halt for the "tough" folk. Im saying more consideration should be shown for the old yins and vulnerable instead of simply shrugging shoulders and being told to accept it coz that's the way it is. Someone coughed by me in shop today. No mask. Did she have covid. Who knows. A mask mibbe just mibbe would have helped if she had. Just learned last week a friend of mines bro in law died of covid. He was double jabbed. If wearing a mask or showing a fecking vaccine card had helped the likes of him and so many others then so be it. I can live with that. The utter selfishness across the UK seems quite evident. 

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35 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

Legal requirement for masks in retail outlets. Vaccine passports for venues with close contact interactions like dance venues and football crowds. Lateral flow rests for all entering care homes and residences of the vulnerable.

All of the above would reduce the pressure on the NHS and allow a focus on the backlog.

IMO the decision to sweep all of this away is not driven by a desire to prevent our economy crashing but simply to boost the profits of large corporations many of which BoJos chums have substantial financial interests in.

 

Mask are required in Scotland and well followed making no difference. 

How are vaccine passports going to make any difference to spread? I have covid just now and am double jagged as has my work mate. We probably caught it from from another colleague despite him being double jagged and us being required to wear masks at all times (ffp 3 in certain situations due to the nature of the job) bar in the canteen which still has 2m distancing. 

Why just nightclubs and football games? Football matches are outdoors. Are bars any different to nightclubs? What about churches? Indoors, singing involved, stowed with the vulnerable? 

They are discriminatory and completely pointless. 

Lft's never picked up my wife's Covid despite her taking numerous tests. She only took a PCR when I was confirmed positive. No symptoms whatsoever same with her brother. 

Serious illness is mostly in the unvacinated and those with other issues such as imunosuppresed (who will always face higher risk) and the elderly (self explanatory). 

 

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13 minutes ago, Shropshire_killie said:

See gdevoys response. I'm not saying life should halt for the "tough" folk. Im saying more consideration should be shown for the old yins and vulnerable instead of simply shrugging shoulders and being told to accept it coz that's the way it is. Someone coughed by me in shop today. No mask. Did she have covid. Who knows. A mask mibbe just mibbe would have helped if she had. Just learned last week a friend of mines bro in law died of covid. He was double jabbed. If wearing a mask or showing a fecking vaccine card had helped the likes of him and so many others then so be it. I can live with that. The utter selfishness across the UK seems quite evident. 

What you're looking for is people to be immortal. 

What about those who have suffered from more preventable disease due to continued restrictions (I believe they were necessary to the point of mass vaccination)? 

What about the serious impact on mental health? 

Is covid the only thing that exists now? 

This is an virus that transmits despite the measures taken. Only full lockdown will make any difference but it can only be a short term time buying device. 

Edited by cammy_boy
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8 minutes ago, cammy_boy said:

Mask are required in Scotland and well followed making no difference. 

 

Not sure how you can say that when there is nothing to compare it with. Let's see where we are in England in a couple of weeks after the schools are back.

Edited by gdevoy
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1 minute ago, gdevoy said:

Not sure how you can say that when there is nothing to compare it with. Let's see where we are in England in a couple of weeks after the schools are back.

What the f**k has that to do with masks in shops ya loony? That suggests schools are the main vector. 

England had higher case rates over the winter because they had shorter lockdowns. 

Scotland is simply catching up on the inevitable. 

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1 hour ago, Bonbon19 said:

 

The ICUs were never overwhelmed according to govt figures ,they were expanded to meet demand yet the Nightingale hospitals sat largely unused.

Yes ICU capacity was expanded, by using MHDU, SHDU, Recovery, Theatre and Burns unit beds - what do you think happened to capacity in those specialist areas? 

1 hour ago, Bonbon19 said:

 I agree that it resulted in all of your observations but wasn’t it Leitch and Handcock who went on national TV to proclaim that the NHS ,especially in relation to GPs and A/E s was open? 

What did you want them to say? “Don’t go to A&E with that searing chest pain, don’t bother your GP with that blood pouring out your arse?”

1 hour ago, Bonbon19 said:


The fact that GPs were torn between the Covid restrictions and regulations , GMC guidelines , BMA guidelines and the desire to see patients didn’t help. In a recent BMC report they looked at the guidelines from 15 countries and all recommended cancelling face to face consults , easier drug renewal procedures but they should remain in contact with patients with chronic disease . Hence the increase in online consults.

Speaking to some GP’s they feel that they were underused in the pandemic and could have contributed to the secondary care sector . 

It’s eye opening to hear that’s how GP’s felt. The most common complaint I hear is that GP’s are still hiding. It’s even led to a new phenomenon where A&E’s are swamped on Monday’s by people that can’t get to see a GP. NHS Fife, Lothian, and Tayside have all put out social media posts in the last few weeks basically saying our A&E departments are overwhelmed, if it’s not an emergency don’t attend and they have also went out into the waiting areas with the same message. 

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28 minutes ago, Zorro said:

 The most common complaint I hear is that GP’s are still hiding. 

That is certainly my lived experience. I have had several texts from the surgery along the lines of "if you are feeling unwell then whatever you do, f**k off and don't bother us". I hear stories of folks spending all day trying to get through to a receptionist just to get a gp to call them back.  

If they are not open, why are we paying them?

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16 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Yes ICU capacity was expanded, by using MHDU, SHDU, Recovery, Theatre and Burns unit beds - what do you think happened to capacity in those specialist areas? 
 

What did you want them to say? “Don’t go to A&E with that searing chest pain, don’t bother your GP with that blood pouring out your arse?”

It’s eye opening to hear that’s how GP’s felt. The most common complaint I hear is that GP’s are still hiding. It’s even led to a new phenomenon where A&E’s are swamped on Monday’s by people that can’t get to see a GP. NHS Fife, Lothian, and Tayside have all put out social media posts in the last few weeks basically saying our A&E departments are overwhelmed, if it’s not an emergency don’t attend and they have also went out into the waiting areas with the same message. 

Rhetorical question but as you know the NHS expands to cope it has that  ability . The point being no one was turned away with Covid at A/E and rightly so , but the upshot being the reduction of services which was inevitable .

The messages given out daily during the pandemic in all forms of media was the NHS is struggling to cope with Covid and all hospitals/departments are full to bursting . This wasn’t the case in all departments though was it ? This optic contributed to people keeping their symptoms until the Covid pandemic was over . It was only laterally in 2021 that the message that the NHS was open was put out as all govts were recognising the back logs that were building up . It was a difficult juggling act I’m sure you’ll agree 
 

My anecdotal evidence came from mainly ex/retired medical personnel tbf  some of who volunteered , and a current one , what does that say about work patterns ? My son concurs with your A/E situation , it’s the same at the QE in Glasgow. 

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20 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

Rhetorical question but as you know the NHS expands to cope it has that  ability . The point being no one was turned away with Covid at A/E and rightly so , but the upshot being the reduction of services which was inevitable .

I’d suggest it doesn’t expand, it diverts resources to the highest point of pressure. And you’re right nobody was turned away from A&E with Covid, but do you think that made the people who had essential cancer treatments cancelled or those waiting longer for cardiac surgery, sleep easier at night?

 

20 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

The messages given out daily during the pandemic in all forms of media was the NHS is struggling to cope with Covid and all hospitals/departments are full to bursting . This wasn’t the case in all departments though was it ? This optic contributed to people keeping their symptoms until the Covid pandemic was over . It was only laterally in 2021 that the message that the NHS was open was put out as all govts were recognising the back logs that were building up . It was a difficult juggling act I’m sure you’ll agree 

There were plenty of areas of the hospitals sitting completely empty. I’m sure you’ll be aware it requires significantly more time to care for a Covid patient than it would for a Medicine of the elderly patient. Changing PPE alone between patients takes up a huge part of the day. That’s why whole cohorts of nearly qualified doctors, nurses and AHP’s were put on the wards early. There was never enough staff to man every area, never mind the temporary hospitals they created. 

20 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

My anecdotal evidence came from mainly ex/retired medical personnel tbf  some of who volunteered , and a current one , what does that say about work patterns ? My son concurs with your A/E situation , it’s the same at the QE in Glasgow. 

Without wanting to sound too cruel, many of the volunteers didn’t have the skills the service urgently required. There is an argument the could and should have been deployed in other areas, but with much of the administrative staff working from home, nursing and AHP’s redeployed to other areas, they’d possibly have lacked the support they required to deliver safe care. 

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Covid passports ditched in England will Scotland follow 

 

Plans to introduce vaccine passports for access into nightclubs and large events in England will not go ahead, the health secretary has said.

Sajid Javid told the BBC: "We shouldn't be doing things for the sake of it."

It was thought the plan, which came under criticism from venues and some MPs, would be introduced at the end of this month.

Just a week ago, the vaccines minister had defended the scheme as the "best way" to keep the night industry open.

No 10 stressed the plan - which had been set to be introduced at the end of this month - would be kept "in reserve" should it be needed over autumn or winter.

Under the scheme, people would have been required to show proof - whether of double vaccination, a negative Covid test or finishing self-isolating after a positive PCR test - in order to gain entry to clubs and other crowded events.

The Night Time Industries Association had said the plans could have crippled the industry and led to nightclubs facing discrimination cases.

The industry body welcomed Sunday's announcement, saying it hoped businesses could now plan with some certainty and start to rebuild the sector.

The Music Venue Trust, which aims to protect grassroots venues, also said it was glad vaccine passports would not be going ahead, describing them as "problematic".

There had been opposition from Tory MPs on the Covid Recovery Group as well as the Liberal Democrats, whose leader Ed Davey called vaccine passports "divisive, unworkable and expensive".

Speaking on The Andrew Marr Show, Mr Javid said: "We just shouldn't be doing things for the sake of it or because others are doing, and we should look at every possible intervention properly."

He said he had "never liked the idea of saying to people you must show your papers" to "do what is just an everyday activity".

"We've looked at it properly and, whilst we should keep it in reserve as a potential option, I'm pleased to say that we will not be going ahead with plans for vaccine passports," he added.

Mr Javid denied the government was "running scared" on the policy after criticism from its own backbenchers. He said the passports were not needed because of other things in the "wall of defence" including high vaccine uptake, testing, surveillance and new treatments

The move to scrap vaccine passports appears to be a sharp U-turn by the government.

On the same TV programme last week, Vaccines Minister Nadhim Zahawi said the end of September was the right time to start the vaccine passport scheme for sites with large crowds because all over-18s would have been offered two jabs by then and it was the "best way" to keep the night industry open.

In the interview, Mr Javid also said:

he wanted to "get rid" of PCR tests for travel and has asked for advice on the issue

he was "not anticipating" any more lockdowns, although it would be "irresponsible to take everything off the table"

if the UK's chief medical officers advised 12 to 15-year-olds should be vaccinated, "we can start within a week" and schools were already preparing for it. The UK's advisory body - the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) - has recommended against doing so except for children with particular health problems - but the final say is with the CMOs.

Scotland is taking a different approach to England - they will bring in a vaccine passport for over-18s for entry to nightclubs and many large events from October.

In Wales, ministers will decide next week whether to introduce the scheme. There are no current plans for a similar scheme in Northern Ireland.

On Sunday, the latest government figures showed there were 29,173 new cases of coronavirus in the UK and 56 further deaths, of people who had tested positive within the previous 28 days.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58535258

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3 hours ago, cammy_boy said:

What you're looking for is people to be immortal. 

What about those who have suffered from more preventable disease due to continued restrictions (I believe they were necessary to the point of mass vaccination)? 

What about the serious impact on mental health? 

Is covid the only thing that exists now? 

This is an virus that transmits despite the measures taken. Only full lockdown will make any difference but it can only be a short term time buying device. 

I'm looking for folk to be immortal? Seriously? Let's agree to disagree. I'd have measures in place to protect folk whether it be small measures such as masks and vaccine certification or if necessary tougher controls. Its interesting how many folk conveniently are now dismissing even measures such as these as pointless to suit their own self rightousness. I was not saying total lockdown but hey ho let's just follow your path.My heart bleeds for young folk not getting to night clubsetc when old folk in care homes etc could not see their loved ones and died alone. 

On a flippant note that film Logans Run springs to mind where old yins exterminated.

Forget immortality let's just try and get everyone, whatever their health to live as long as naturally they can. I do acknowledge our society, led by Boris and chums do not appear to want to do that. 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Shropshire_killie said:

I'm looking for folk to be immortal? Seriously? Let's agree to disagree. I'd have measures in place to protect folk whether it be small measures such as masks and vaccine certification or if necessary tougher controls. Its interesting how many folk conveniently are now dismissing even measures such as these as pointless to suit their own self rightousness. I was not saying total lockdown but hey ho let's just follow your path.My heart bleeds for young folk not getting to night clubsetc when old folk in care homes etc could not see their loved ones and died alone. 

On a flippant note that film Logans Run springs to mind where old yins exterminated.

Forget immortality let's just try and get everyone, whatever their health to live as long as naturally they can. I do acknowledge our society, led by Boris and chums do not appear to want to do that. 

 

 

You genuinely think we are still at the stage of throwing the elderly to the lions? We went through lockdowns to give time to get vacancies out.....for the elderly and ill. We made sure they were all double jagged. 

If any restrictions are in place they should be so for everyone. Every business in every walk of life. Lets see the support for such things when they are targeted at everyone. 

You say people are dismissing measures to suit their own agenda. Seems to me that its easy to say such restrictions are no hardships when they aren't affected. 

Also I think its a bit s**t to think that young people haven't lost out on some of the best times of their life's. I had that you had that and the "auld yins" had it! This isnt about just the old anymore (which it certainly was until the spring) its about everyone. 

Essentially you want restrictions to remains as long as covid is around and that based on what we know of other similar diseases will be forever. 

Your delusional if you think arbitrary measures in an otherwise open society will make any significant difference. 

 

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