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Are anti-vaxers the new flat earthers?


gdevoy

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19 minutes ago, Scooby_Doo said:

Passporting isn't a new thing in the context of travelling to other countries, that's right. But since we weren't talking about that, I'm not sure why you brought that up. We were talking about nightclubs and festivals. Before that you suggested that anyone who can't prove their vaccination status should be subjected to their own personal level four lockdown.

Carrying some form of vaccination proof to go about your daily life has never been required, nor should it be, and I doubt it will be.

No-one is suggesting you'll have to prove some form of vaccination to 'go about your daily life'.  

None of the situations we've been discussing are part of 'daily life' these days, and attendance is not mandatory.  

At one point, you could drink and drive, didn't need a license to drive a car, smoke in pubs, didn't even need a passport to travel abroad - life moves on - often with the interests of wider public health as a catalyst.  

Passporting in the control of infectious diseases is well established, it just happens to be before COIVD, those dangerous, widespread, infectious diseases were abroad and not prevalent in this country - mostly cos of vaccination. but that is no longer the case.

Edited by RAG
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4 hours ago, RAG said:

No-one is suggesting you'll have to prove some form of vaccination to 'go about your daily life'. 

That is exactly what is being suggested! See the quotes below from earlier in the thread:

On 11/22/2020 at 11:13 PM, RAG said:

Gotta be a bit of carrot and stick with it, i’d make the carrot, being able to go to the pub, gym, football, on holiday etc etc with the vaccine having been administered. Give people that option, or a level 4 personalised lockdown.

 

On 11/23/2020 at 10:56 AM, RAG said:

In the interests of public health, the economy, society at large -  people should have a personal choice; Vaccine or Lockdown.  Seems entirely reasonable during a pandemic.

 

On 11/23/2020 at 10:57 AM, Scooter said:

Unless you think it's reasonable to self isolate unvaccinated, while everyone else goes about their business, like RAG suggests. It won't be acceptable to swan around, possibly asymptomatic, infecting other more vulnerable family members or others.

As with needing vaccinations to go to some far flung destinations, I'm thinking everyone will need a vax certificate to get us all back to some normality, go to the pub, down the gym or come back to RP.

 

On 11/24/2020 at 12:18 PM, RAG said:

if you play ball, and can prove you’re not infected by taking all reasonable steps (including vaccination when available) you’ll get let out sooner.

 

On 11/24/2020 at 1:28 PM, RAG said:

Suggesting (to flip your argument on its’s head) people be given the same ‘rights’ who haven’t taken reasonable steps, (App ‘passporting’ /vaccination) as those who have,  is dangerous to society at large and causes more problems for the collective society as a whole, than any offence caused to the individual.

 

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8 minutes ago, Scooby_Doo said:

That is exactly what is being suggested! See the quotes below from earlier in the thread:

I hate to break it to you man, but I'm not actually in charge of Covid policy in the UK, nor am I scooter!  

None of the examples you've listed are 'essential' items - we all get by without them today, none are mandatory for participation in society.

You could have at least quoted the one where I decried anti vaxers as 'snowflakes', or 'not the sort of folk you'd want to be in the trenches with in 1915' for some sort of balance.

I stand by all my statements, except level 4 - level 3 might be more appropriate on a Tuesday.

I note from todays news, if you test negative for COVID, you can visit care homes in England - which sounds mighty like the start of 'passporting' to me!!

Edited by RAG
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I woke up to the rejoicing on BBC that the MRHA had approved the Pfuzer vaccine for UK use. My initial reaction was "indecent haste at best".

Then I heard that the trials results have not been peer reviewed which means the MRHA are relying on information supplied by an American pharmaceutical corporation's sales department.

Then I heard that after a bit of a kicking in parliament last night BoJo was tweeting this morning about the UK being a world leader again with vaccine approval.

Am I just cynically putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 here or gave I got grounds for suspecting that some of our glorious civil servants have been heavily leant upon to give BoJo something to take the heat off?

Edited by gdevoy
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16 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I woke up to the rejoicing on BBC that the MRHA had approved the Pfuzer vaccine for UK use. My initial reaction was "indecent haste at best".

Then I heard that the trials results have not been peer reviewed which means the MRHA are relying on information supplied by an American pharmaceutical corporation's sales department.

Then I heard that after a bit of a kicking in parliament last night BoJo was tweeting this morning about the UK being a world leader again with vaccine approval.

Am I just cynically putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 here or gave I got grounds for suspecting that some of our glorious civil servants have been heavily leant upon to give BoJo something to take the heat off?

Lockdown ended at midnight in England too.  They only have 800,000 doses (for presumably 400,000 folk) until 2021 and they'll all have to get it done again by around June.  Logistics will be 'interesting'.  Is slightly jingoistic to suggest the UK is a 'world leader' in vaccine approval, when China's already been vaccinating people for months with theirs. 

From the perspective of Boris, probably creates enough December tittle-tattle about a less than 1% chance of getting the vaccine, to make most folk forget about the impacts of Brexit, which will affect roughly 100% of us by Decembers end.

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8 hours ago, gdevoy said:

I woke up to the rejoicing on BBC that the MRHA had approved the Pfuzer vaccine for UK use. My initial reaction was "indecent haste at best".

Then I heard that the trials results have not been peer reviewed which means the MRHA are relying on information supplied by an American pharmaceutical corporation's sales department.

Then I heard that after a bit of a kicking in parliament last night BoJo was tweeting this morning about the UK being a world leader again with vaccine approval.

Am I just cynically putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 here or gave I got grounds for suspecting that some of our glorious civil servants have been heavily leant upon to give BoJo something to take the heat off?

You either take what the independent MHRA say or you spread rumours that are unhelpful below is an extract from the New Scientist 

25C9876C-67C4-4745-8F43-9B1E21800A4B.jpeg

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58 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

You either take what the independent MHRA say or you spread rumours that are unhelpful below is an extract from the New Scientist 

25C9876C-67C4-4745-8F43-9B1E21800A4B.jpeg

They say that all the data used was supplied by Pfizer then say absolutely no corners were cut. Somebody this morning asked, is it not normal to have the results peer reviewed before a certificate is issued? To which they answered, well yes but we can sort all that out later. We dont have time for all that palaver now.

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4 hours ago, Sir Steve said:

I’ve not seen this reported, but Ayrshire seems to have been without supplies of the flu jab for weeks now, and yet it’s been emphasised how important it is in this year of all years to get it done. Doesn’t inspire confidence for the efficient roll out of the vaccine. 

If you’ve ever had any dealings with AAHB this won’t come as any surprise 

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13 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Uptake of the flu vaccine is significantly up on previous years. And football clubs won’t be the only industries utilising different working practices over the last year. Cut them some slack. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54598603

If this was an isolated incident then some slack would be in order but in the report I like the pertinent line  “if however the issue is solely in NHS AAHB the CEO needs to be open and transparent with staff “ 

That unfortunately was and seemingly still is his problem . 

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4 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54598603

If this was an isolated incident then some slack would be in order but in the report I like the pertinent line  “if however the issue is solely in NHS AAHB the CEO needs to be open and transparent with staff “ 

That unfortunately was and seemingly still is his problem . 

I know for a fact that Lothian, Fife and Tayside have all run short of vaccines since the article you’ve used from early October. This has meant staff vaccination programs being paused in some areas and vulnerable patients being turned away in other. This isn’t just  an AAHB issue. 

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You will all now no doubt be aware that Dr Anthony Fauci, the US chief medical officer's initial reaction to the UK vaccine certification was not 1,000,000 miles away from mine. Then he was obliged to "clarify" his remarks into a politically acceptable form. 

Remember BoJo's description of the Scottish parliament. Then everybody had to explain what he really meant. 

Fauci should have been more careful so as not to give the anti-vaxers any ammunition. But I think it would be fair to say that like me he was a little surprised things had happened so fast.  

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32 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

You will all now no doubt be aware that Dr Anthony Fauci, the US chief medical officer's initial reaction to the UK vaccine certification was not 1,000,000 miles away from mine. Then he was obliged to "clarify" his remarks into a politically acceptable form. 

Remember BoJo's description of the Scottish parliament. Then everybody had to explain what he really meant. 

Fauci should have been more careful so as not to give the anti-vaxers any ammunition. But I think it would be fair to say that like me he was a little surprised things had happened so fast.  

The fact the vaccine was hurriedly approved first in the UK in the very week the Brexit negotiations are due to be concluded, is an enormous coincidence, which mostly favours the Tories.

Chuck in the nonsense about Brexit enabling us to approve (the made in the EU) vaccine faster, which is completely false, given Hungry has been given the green light to deploy the Russian vaccine.

Plus Gavin Williamson given it the full nationalist trumpet, blowing about how the 'UK is a better country' and there's clearly a significant amount of news management going on here - and not just in the widespread denial that Brexit is a nationalist project - although perhaps not the sort of civic nationalism seen in Scotland where any resident is invited aboard.  All of which ain't gonna inspire the anti-vaxers, or businesses affected by Brexit, with a great deal of confidence in the certification process, or on the flip side, that there's any realistic chance of a post Brexit trade deal.

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59 minutes ago, RAG said:

The fact the vaccine was hurriedly approved first in the UK in the very week the Brexit negotiations are due to be concluded, is an enormous coincidence, which mostly favours the Tories.

Chuck in the nonsense about Brexit enabling us to approve (the made in the EU) vaccine faster, which is completely false, given Hungry has been given the green light to deploy the Russian vaccine.

Plus Gavin Williamson given it the full nationalist trumpet, blowing about how the 'UK is a better country' and there's clearly a significant amount of news management going on here - and not just in the widespread denial that Brexit is a nationalist project - although perhaps not the sort of civic nationalism seen in Scotland where any resident is invited aboard.  All of which ain't gonna inspire the anti-vaxers, or businesses affected by Brexit, with a great deal of confidence in the certification process, or on the flip side, that there's any realistic chance of a post Brexit trade deal.

June Raine, the person in charge, has a record of making decision throughout her career without deferring to anyone, including restricting the dosage of paracetamol for children and restricting the usage of co proximal. She is widely respected for her cautious approach, so it seems a shame that people are effectively suggesting she has given into pressure. The tories have no doubt made the most of it, but opponents trying to cast doubt on the vaccine, just because it doesn’t suit their agenda, and are politicising it themselves are just as bad. 

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I am absolutely no fan of the British government and think their handling of the crisis has been a shambles. Putting that to one side, I think they've got things spot on with the vaccine. From what I understand, the MHRA have been part of a rolling review of all the vaccine data as opposed to other countries particularly in the EU who have only been provided with all the vaccine data at the end of the trial period. This might explain why we're better placed to authorise its use a bit quicker than other countries. 

If Fauci, or the EU have evidence to suggest that the UK has cut corners or rushed things through then they'd better provide it or wind their neck in. It's not only the UK who are playing politics here. The brexit comments and the bragging on being the first to get the vaccine out were stupid and ill timed and make the UK look foolish, but I think Fauci by delaying the approval process by a week or two will help win over some anti vaxxers over the pond. They're playing politics as much as the UK here, imo. 

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1 hour ago, Sir Steve said:

June Raine, the person in charge, has a record of making decision throughout her career without deferring to anyone, including restricting the dosage of paracetamol for children and restricting the usage of co proximal. She is widely respected for her cautious approach, so it seems a shame that people are effectively suggesting she has given into pressure. The tories have no doubt made the most of it, but opponents trying to cast doubt on the vaccine, just because it doesn’t suit their agenda, and are politicising it themselves are just as bad. 

I was primarily referring to the link between Brexit and the vaccine.  A link the Tories were falling over themselves in parliament and the media at the first opportunity to point out - falsely of course, but these are Tories with a clear British nationalist pro Brexit agenda.  

Fauci mentioned the UK had taken data from Pfizer on face value, whereas the FDA over there, prefers to scrutinise it for themselves - which seems fundamentally to be a 'more cautious approach' - regardless of any individuals previous work record or history.

Doesn't really make any difference anyway to the vast majority of people in the UK, who won't even receive a vaccine, until the first groups selected have had their 6, 12, or more likely 18 or 24 month booster.  Huge logistical challenge to give 4 jabs a year to over 65s, let alone the adult population at large.

Edited by RAG
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20 hours ago, RAG said:

I was primarily referring to the link between Brexit and the vaccine.  A link the Tories were falling over themselves in parliament and the media at the first opportunity to point out - falsely of course, but these are Tories with a clear British nationalist pro Brexit agenda.  

Fauci mentioned the UK had taken data from Pfizer on face value, whereas the FDA over there, prefers to scrutinise it for themselves - which seems fundamentally to be a 'more cautious approach' - regardless of any individuals previous work record or history.

Doesn't really make any difference anyway to the vast majority of people in the UK, who won't even receive a vaccine, until the first groups selected have had their 6, 12, or more likely 18 or 24 month booster.  Huge logistical challenge to give 4 jabs a year to over 65s, let alone the adult population at large.

Of course the SNP never use circumstances to push their own agenda like paying a bonus to NHS staff and then trying to publicly embarrass the UK Government into paying the tax on it. They knew that would never happen and were prepared to offer false hope to workers to create a division. Also interesting that the biggest beneficiaries would have been the highly paid GPs and consultants who pay higher rate tax. This would be solved, of course of the bonus was increased to £625 with the Scottish Government getting the tax back. The currently hold around one billion pounds in reserve from the COVID funds that have been granted if they want to find it. The Welsh Government have no made any request for a tax exemption on their bonus. I agree the current batch Tories are British Nationalists pushing a crazy Brexit agenda, but our Scottish Government are no innocents either in the politics of cynicism. 

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11 minutes ago, Sir Steve said:

Of course the SNP never use circumstances to push their own agenda like paying a bonus to NHS staff and then trying to publicly embarrass the UK Government into paying the tax on it. They knew that would never happen and were prepared to offer false hope to workers to create a division. Also interesting that the biggest beneficiaries would have been the highly paid GPs and consultants who pay higher rate tax. This would be solved, of course of the bonus was increased to £625 with the Scottish Government getting the tax back. The currently hold around one billion pounds in reserve from the COVID funds that have been granted if they want to find it. The Welsh Government have no made any request for a tax exemption on their bonus. I agree the current batch Tories are British Nationalists pushing a crazy Brexit agenda, but our Scottish Government are no innocents either in the politics of cynicism. 

all the highly paid surgeons will be thankful if their bonus. it is grandstanding by sturgeon on the grandest of scales. perhaps a "bonus" to people who have lost their jobs might have been a better idea?

the hones truth is everything they do is geared to garner support for indy and nothing to do with bettering scotland  

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