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Shropshire_killie

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2 hours ago, Zorro said:

It might be easier if we start from the part you start finding believable. So if we rule out god creates the earth in seven days - Adam & Eve, talking snakes, talking donkey, magic fruit, 500 year old man builds floating zoo, god dabbling in artificial insemination, 200 foreskins, virgin wife pregnant, celestial GPS locator,  talking bushes, magic cures, Christianity is tax exempt, pop up restaurant for 10K people with a couple of fish and some bread, walking on water, Jesus the tree killer, the resurrection? Which ones are plausible?

A lot of witnesses to the resurrection were willing to die themselves rather than deny what they had seen. Perhaps they were mistaken but they must gave seen something. 

Or do you prefer the idea the accounts are all just invented by some guys with nothing better to do on a Saturday afternoon got together and thought it would be a bit of a wheeze just to make the whole thing up?

Edited by gdevoy
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30 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

A lot of witnesses to the resurrection were willing to die themselves rather than deny what they had seen. Perhaps they were mistaken but they must gave seen something. 

Or do you prefer the idea the accounts are all just invented by some guys with nothing better to do on a Saturday afternoon got together and thought it would be a bit of a wheeze just to make the whole thing up?

I’ve read similar accounts of people willing to die, to protect a person carrying a magical ring, back to the mountain it was forged in, with the purpose of destroying it. Perhaps neither of these incidents occurred. 
 

I prefer the idea that the ideas have been embellished to make them more attractive to a primitive time. I believe the power of organised religion would be well known to the leaders of the time and they’ve taken aspects of a real person, added a splash of magic to make him stand out and created a fantastic backstory which they think tied off all the loose ends. This story has been used to control the masses for years. Why should the meek and the poor suffer through this life, while the rich and powerful live life’s of luxury, when the meek and poor have the numbers to take the earth now? 
 

Jesus was probably just an early Tony Benn. A relatively rich man, with a genuine concern for his follow man and a desire to see them level up. He probably did help feed the poor. He probably helped out with the sick. He probably did a ton of charity work. He probably had loads of well intentioned beliefs. But he wasn’t a god or sent to save us. 

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4 hours ago, Zorro said:

This story has been used to control the masses for years. 

People will use whatever is available to control the masses. Some of the most despotic regimes in the modern world have been totally "god free". The revolutionaries in Russia closed down all the churches and then wiped out about 6 million Ukranians in the Soviet Fammine. Christianity has not got a great track record over the years, millions died fighting over The Reformation in Europe but taking it away forcibly has not made people behave any better.

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52 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

People will use whatever is available to control the masses. Some of the most despotic regimes in the modern world have been totally "god free". The revolutionaries in Russia closed down all the churches and then wiped out about 6 million Ukranians in the Soviet Fammine. Christianity has not got a great track record over the years, millions died fighting over The Reformation in Europe but taking it away forcibly has not made people behave any better.

Well said Gdevoy The Spirit of truth will set you free.

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

People will use whatever is available to control the masses. Some of the most despotic regimes in the modern world have been totally "god free". The revolutionaries in Russia closed down all the churches and then wiped out about 6 million Ukranians in the Soviet Fammine. Christianity has not got a great track record over the years, millions died fighting over The Reformation in Europe but taking it away forcibly has not made people behave any better.

Good point. Except for the bit about the Russian church being closed down. That didn’t happen. Marginalised, yes. Ridiculed, definitely. Property confiscated, with out a doubt. But it was never closed down or made illegal. 
 

And if we’re doing a death toll scorecard( seems a bit distasteful tbh), chalk the Christian British empire up for 7 million deaths in the Bengal famine just a few short years later. 

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18 minutes ago, Zorro said:

And if we’re doing a death toll scorecard( seems a bit distasteful tbh), chalk the Christian British empire up for 7 million deaths in the Bengal famine just a few short years later. 

The British have wiped out whole populations under the guise of bringing them to Christianity. Did you know there are no Tasmanian aborigines. 100% genocide, wiped out of existence by the British. What a Christian civilising influence? I would not judge something good or bad because of their claims to be Christian. But at the same time the absence of Christuanity does not automatically make it good.

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1 minute ago, gdevoy said:

The British have wiped out whole populations under the guise of bringing them to Christianity. Did you know there are no Tasmanian aborigines. 100% genocide, wiped out of existence by the British. What a Christian civilising influence? I would not judge something good or bad because of their claims to be Christian. But at the same time the absence of Christuanity does not automatically make it good.

I’m not here to judge anyone or to ridicule them for their faith. I just don’t get it, I prefer science and the tangible. I think it’s also fair to point out the main textbook has some questionable claims in it. If you can live with that, fair play to you. 

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11 hours ago, gdevoy said:

A lot of witnesses to the resurrection were willing to die themselves rather than deny what they had seen. Perhaps they were mistaken but they must gave seen something. 

Or do you prefer the idea the accounts are all just invented by some guys with nothing better to do on a Saturday afternoon got together and thought it would be a bit of a wheeze just to make the whole thing up?

Wait a minute, are you actually picking and choosing what you believe. 

It's all garbage, take it from a guy that had to actually bite my lip when my mother and sister and my aunts insisted my dad had to have a "proper" funeral. 

 

I am that arrogant to believe that there is nothing. Being an agnostis is a cop out 

 

 

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7 hours ago, seedsy said:

Wait a minute, are you actually picking and choosing what you believe. 

I believe much of what is written in Genesis is allegorical. How do you explain the particle physics of the creation to a bunch of folks who lived by herding sheep? That is why I am considered a dangerous heretic by the Fundies (Fundamentalists). To them I ask, so do you believe Schrodinger actually owned a cat?

7 hours ago, seedsy said:

It's all garbage, take it from a guy that had to actually bite my lip when my mother and sister and my aunts insisted my dad had to have a "proper" funeral. 

 

That's a pretty sweeping statement. For myself as an engineer, I have spent 40 years listening to RAF pilots telling me the equipment we supplied them has done something and knowing with absolute certainty it simply canny do that because I was involved in the design. Then discovering, biggar me, they were right. I have no absolute certainty in my life. I'm sorry your dad has passed away, funerals can be a difficult time. I hope he was a good Killje man.

 

 

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

For myself as an engineer, I have spent 40 years listening to RAF pilots telling me the equipment we supplied them has done something and knowing with absolute certainty it simply canny do that because I was involved in the design. Then discovering, biggar me, they were right.

As an engineer - would you believe a designer (or more accurately their area sales rep) if they told you that even when their product breaks or becomes obsolete, it will transform into a better product, as long as the warranty hadn’t been voided,  during it’s lifespan? 

Edited by Zorro
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9 minutes ago, Zorro said:

As an engineer - would you believe a designer (or more accurately their area sales rep) if they told you that even when their product breaks or becomes obsolete, it will transform into a better product, as long as the warranty hadn’t been voided,  during it’s lifespan? 

?

Most issues come from the fact that people cant tell the difference between an engineer and a sales rep.

I was not allowed to talk directly to our customers (people who made financial decisions) as I was adjudged to be too "forthright" to be customer facing.

I did have some interesting conversations with end users. Usually something along the lines of ... "we never actually envisioned anybody trying to get it to work that way".

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