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ChrissyRoss

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11 hours ago, Zorro said:

Dick Campbell, John McGlynn,  Gus Macpherson, Allan Johnstone, Brian Rice, Ian McCall, Steve Crawford, David Hopkin….we must have different definitions of young and talented.

I'd guess Hamilton, ICT, Dunfermilne, Partick and Raith all see themselves as pushing for promotion. Ayr and QotS will be no mugs. I'm guessing the one or two managers must all be counted as yongsters compared to TW. Stevie Crawford has already left the building so still not clear who will be in charge at some of these clubs.

The thing is I am old enough to remember how tough it was to compete at this level and I expect nothing less this time.    

Edited by gdevoy
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7 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I'd guess Hamilton, ICT, Dunfermilne, Partick and Raith all see themselves as pushing for promotion. Ayr and QotS will be no mugs. I'm guessing the one or two managers must all be counted as yongsters compared to TW. Stevie Crawford has already left the building so still not clear who will be in charge at some of these clubs.

The thing is I am old enough to remember how tough it was to compete at this level and I expect nothing less this time.    

I’d guess every team in the league thinks they have a chance of at least a playoff spot, it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen, but that’s not what you said. You said it was a league full of young talented managers. 

Dick Campbell - 67 no major trophies 

John McGlynn - 59 no major trophies

Brian Rice- 57 no major trophies

Tommy Wright - 57 one Scottish cup

Ian McCall - 56 no major trophies  

Gus Macpherson - 52 no major trophies 

David Hopkin- 50 no major trophies 

Please point out the young talented managers from that group? Looks like ours is head and shoulders above all of them.

 

 


 

 

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13 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

Perspective

The.most sickening thing about all this is that just 2 years ago we had a platform we hadn't had for over 50 years to properly establish the club in the top half of the League..consistently.Not fighting relegation every other year, but pushing on, building on the massive feel good factor around the club and the town.

Knowing that SC was leaving in mid-April, the next managerial appointment was the key. Flushed with success we went with a big name...Chelsea, Juventus etc..on paper a good choice.

However the decision to let 'senior' players call the shots started the dominos to where we are today.

Any manager coming into a new environment as Alessio was needs time.I wasnt a huge fan of his after CQN, but agree that he made us hard to beat and was looking forward to his January window.

Instead, once (it seems) Dicker, Broadfoot et al, were given control we blew our best chance again in 50 years to be right up there. In season 2019-20 we would probably have finished 6th, maybe 7th, fine. But, with another window and a year for his ideas to bed in, Alessio would have had us up there as an established top half club.Instead we have let the likes of Livingston and St.Johnstone take those places.

To have to 'reset' the club just 2 years later is shambolic...

Relegation can happen, we know that, however it should.never ever have happened so quickly...the chance we had, as a club only comes around rarely...and that is what.makes tonight so hard to take.

What was strange about the AA fiasco for me is that it was such a short spell of trouble he had. CQN apart we started the season quite solidly, conceding very few. The football was quite brutal but you could see what he was trying to establish - presumably he sold the board on this vision, so you have to give him time to implement it. Cultural changes take time. 

We lost Findlay, which was a huge blow. We ended up away to Aberdeen, I think, playing our 5th and 6th choice centre backs. It was a calamitous time for injuries. 

Dyer had far more, far longer periods of trouble than AA got the chop for  

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1 minute ago, Zorro said:

You said it was a league full of young talented managers.

 

Yeah, got a bit carried away there. Based on how Wright who is only a couple of years younger than me was taken to the cleaners by McPake. Turns out there are a few "seasond" campaigners in there. Anyone for Allan Johnston???? ?

Shooting from the hip / reserch failure I'm afraid. 

Still think we are in for a huge struggle.

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1 minute ago, Dillinger said:

What was strange about the AA fiasco for me is that it was such a short spell of trouble he had. CQN apart we started the season quite solidly, conceding very few. The football was quite brutal but you could see what he was trying to establish - presumably he sold the board on this vision, so you have to give him time to implement it. Cultural changes take time. 

We lost Findlay, which was a huge blow. We ended up away to Aberdeen, I think, playing our 5th and 6th choice centre backs. It was a calamitous time for injuries. 

Dyer had far more, far longer periods of trouble than AA got the chop for  

Following CQN, which I believe was one of those results no manager ever properly recovers from, we got shat on away to Hamilton. Then we gradually began to sucessfully close the back door and started to grind out 0-0s ocasionally grabbing 3 points with a goal out of nowhere. The strategy was clearly to hold posession for 90 minutes as the oposition cant score if they dont have the ball. Going forward we carried no real threat at all and it was a really hard watch. 

Livingston played a high press against us and our posession game collapsed and Alessio's cover was totally blown. Dunno about dressing room issues but I saw no evidence of clever football coaching in anything I watched.   

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13 hours ago, historyman said:

I want Bowie gone. His mismanagement, poor decision making and lack of leadership has ultimately cost us our place in the league. 
 I still don’t know why people say we depend on him financially and I will still never understand why we sold our best defender with about 10 games to go. 

Then you need to identify someone who can do a better job. Before you try it do not come out with the crap that " I don't have the responsibilty for that "

You are entitled to vent your spleen and have an opinion but you need to back it up.

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18 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

Yeah, got a bit carried away there. Based on how Wright who is only a couple of years younger than me was taken to the cleaners by McPake. Turns out there are a few "seasond" campaigners in there. Anyone for Allan Johnston???? ?

Shooting from the hip / reserch failure I'm afraid. 

Still think we are in for a huge struggle.

Would you take McPake as manager, I wouldn’t? I feel he got lucky. Dundee had a much shorter season so they came into these games fresher. They had an extra days rest prior to the first leg against us, and you could even argue a whole week after getting the job done in their first game against Raith.  He was up against a squad low on confidence and on its last legs. There was a longer gap between the two playoff games than usual which again gave his team to recover. We didn’t adapt to the conditions at Dens and then we’re playing catch-up. We gave away four cheap goals through a mixture of ineptitude and basic mistakes. We also suffered from a lack of players who’ll be around to suffer from the consequences of their half arsed performances. McPake will get found out in the Premier. Charlie Adam will be marked out of the game. Fontaine and Ashcroft will struggle against pace. Mullen will go back to sitting on the bench. Sow will be laughed at. Just my opinion with a healthy dose of sour grapes thrown in for good measure. 

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13 minutes ago, superfan said:

Then you need to identify someone who can do a better job. Before you try it do not come out with the crap that " I don't have the responsibilty for that "

You are entitled to vent your spleen and have an opinion but you need to back it up.

Don’t be so utterly ridiculous. I’m a supporter of the club, I don’t own it. 

But if someone gave me that job to do I would willingly take it on and go out looking for new owners to replace those we have. 

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4 minutes ago, historyman said:

Don’t be so utterly ridiculous. I’m a supporter of the club, I don’t own it. 

But if someone gave me that job to do I would willingly take it on and go out looking for new owners to replace those we have. 

Utterly ridiculous ? You really need to read a lot of your posts.

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35 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

Following CQN, which I believe was one of those results no manager ever properly recovers from, we got shat on away to Hamilton. Then we gradually began to sucessfully close the back door and started to grind out 0-0s ocasionally grabbing 3 points with a goal out of nowhere. The strategy was clearly to hold posession for 90 minutes as the oposition cant score if they dont have the ball. Going forward we carried no real threat at all and it was a really hard watch. 

Livingston played a high press against us and our posession game collapsed and Alessio's cover was totally blown. Dunno about dressing room issues but I saw no evidence of clever football coaching in anything I watched.   

I recall leaving Rugby Park having thumped Hearts 3-0...think that was inder AA...agree we were sometimes hard to watch...but I would have taken a 5th place finish this year...at least he had a plan...had an organised team...perhaps it would have evolved...

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If we are trying to get things in perspective... we need to stop blaming 2 players for all our woes this year.

The vast majority of posts on here would burn KB and GD at the stake.

Both players are at the end of their careers and just because there older doesn't mean everything falls on their shoulders. I criticise them both when they make mistakes but the vast majority of supporters who post on here, have subscribed to a small group that runs the club... honestly do you think it's a school play ground.

The AA situation, as club captain GD and the senior players where asked their views.. as captain he gave them, that's part of the role. If the club listens to it and takes action its still not his call... I guarantee AA leaving wasn't based on that alone. From ex players and playing staff, they all praise the efforts of GD in the dressing room.. yes they may shout at younger players but even in Liverpool or Man Utd that happens.

GD has been way below his previous standard this year but none of us know how Covid 19 effected some players both physically and mentally.. with travel restrictions how much did some players get effected over others or their family.

On a purely footballing terms though do you think GD and KB were playing each week because they picked the team or in the eyes of 3 out of 4 of our managers they were the best option. Having shi* goalkeepers can't be under estimated especially on center half's. That was the main issue along with terrible signings over 3 years.

Even through last nights shambles, where KB contributed to the 2nd .. BTW Rossi was always missing cutting out the cross. KB at least tried to the very end... 3/4 of the team didn't even try. 

GD not playing really showed that no one else can try and link the back 4 to the front line. We resorted to hoof ball because we had no effective passing from defence forward. Having GD or even Stuart Findlay would have helped.

I'm as pissed as everyone.. but the blame shouldn't be lumped on 2 players.. they don't make the decisions others are paid to... and they all failed miserably.

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53 minutes ago, Zorro said:

McPake will get found out in the Premier. Charlie Adam will be marked out of the game. Fontaine and Ashcroft will struggle against pace. Mullen will go back to sitting on the bench. Sow will be laughed at. Just my opinion with a healthy dose of sour grapes thrown in for good measure. 

You could be right about McPake. I cetainly agree about Adam and Ashcroft although Dundee could strengethen.

This is probably not a popular view as most seem bought into the "it was all Dyer's fault" narative even 10 games after he was history. However, while Dyer was clearly struggling with several issues he did not do any worse with the dressingroom issues than Wright. For me the "covid incident" was a watershed we never really recovered from. Had we had a better manager in place he might have got over it but it was all too much for Dyer and yes Tommy brought in Lafferty and we scored a few goals but we were leaking them even faster than under Dyer so it didnt really change much.

 

Edited by gdevoy
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1 hour ago, drmurray said:

Even through last nights shambles, where KB contributed to the 2nd .. BTW Rossi was always missing cutting out the cross. KB at least tried to the very end... 3/4 of the team didn't even try. 
 

It was KB's ball all the way. He left his man (who scored) to knock over Rossi.

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6 hours ago, drmurray said:

If we are trying to get things in perspective... we need to stop blaming 2 players for all our woes this year.

The vast majority of posts on here would burn KB and GD at the stake.

Both players are at the end of their careers and just because there older doesn't mean everything falls on their shoulders. I criticise them both when they make mistakes but the vast majority of supporters who post on here, have subscribed to a small group that runs the club... honestly do you think it's a school play ground.

The AA situation, as club captain GD and the senior players where asked their views.. as captain he gave them, that's part of the role. If the club listens to it and takes action its still not his call... I guarantee AA leaving wasn't based on that alone. From ex players and playing staff, they all praise the efforts of GD in the dressing room.. yes they may shout at younger players but even in Liverpool or Man Utd that happens.

GD has been way below his previous standard this year but none of us know how Covid 19 effected some players both physically and mentally.. with travel restrictions how much did some players get effected over others or their family.

On a purely footballing terms though do you think GD and KB were playing each week because they picked the team or in the eyes of 3 out of 4 of our managers they were the best option. Having shi* goalkeepers can't be under estimated especially on center half's. That was the main issue along with terrible signings over 3 years.

Even through last nights shambles, where KB contributed to the 2nd .. BTW Rossi was always missing cutting out the cross. KB at least tried to the very end... 3/4 of the team didn't even try. 

GD not playing really showed that no one else can try and link the back 4 to the front line. We resorted to hoof ball because we had no effective passing from defence forward. Having GD or even Stuart Findlay would have helped.

I'm as pissed as everyone.. but the blame shouldn't be lumped on 2 players.. they don't make the decisions others are paid to... and they all failed miserably.

Which would be fine if anyone was blaming two players for ‘all our woes’. They’re not. 

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Dont disagree that it was a hard watch at times under AA but when you look at the defence of SOD, DDF, Findlay and Niko, that was a major upgrade in all positions on what we had this season.

Ultimately any side with a solid defensive foundation will never be relegated as they will pick up.enough draws along the way to stay clear of it.AA had only one window, and I think, if he had properly been given others, would have further strengthened the defence.

SC who admittedly is in a different League took the same defence and midfield McCulloch couldn't get a tune out of, and within 2 or 3 games made them hard to beat with proper coaching.

Wright had 4 months (not 2 or 3 games) to take a yes, poor defence and midfield and with coaching at least cut down on the stupid goals we lost...instead they continued.

Rather, he went with a 'outscore' the opposition approach, which can only carry you so far.

Had he, as a former goalkeeper, instead come in, in January and thought, 'right, defence above all else' we could have ground out a few draws along the way, which would have led to 10th or higher.

What I dont see with TW so far, and this is where I am critical of him, is defensive coaching. Dyer and Fowler cobbled together a poor defence, but it's the later coaching which could, and should have seen the season out.

Edited by Jedi2
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9 hours ago, Zorro said:

Dundee had a much shorter season so they came into these games fresher. They had an extra days rest prior to the first leg against us, and you could even argue a whole week after getting the job done in their first game against Raith.  He was up against a squad low on confidence and on its last legs. There was a longer gap between the two playoff games than usual which again gave his team to recover. We didn’t adapt to the conditions at Dens and then we’re playing catch-up. We gave away four cheap goals through a mixture of ineptitude and basic mistakes. We also suffered from a lack of players who’ll be around to suffer from the consequences of their half arsed performances. McPake will get found out in the Premier. Charlie Adam will be marked out of the game. Fontaine and Ashcroft will struggle against pace. Mullen will go back to sitting on the bench. Sow will be laughed at. Just my opinion with a healthy dose of sour grapes thrown in for good measure. 

The gap between the two playoff games was very similar in 2016. I thought that the playoffs were stacked against the Championship team but the timing of the playoffs aren’t unless you are the 3rd or 4th placed team which Dundee weren’t. 

The shorter season might have helped keep them fresh but they had less time to get things sorted on the pitch 

Dundee will need major investment and will be one of the favourites to come straight back down. 

The fact that the SPL team normally wins is to do with better quality. We made an absolute mess of it as we didn’t have the quality required. 

We’ll need to win the league to get up again as if we are in a playoff we are likely to face a stronger SPL team with better quality than we’d have. 

Edited by MarkyMark
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