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Afghanistan


Guard Lane

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Watching the news, Kabul about to fall to the Taliban. A day of total shame and disgrace for the US especially & UK  abandoning the Afghan people. 

20 years wasted, thousands of lives lost for nothing, billions of dollars squandered. Looks as if the so called war on terror has been all but abandoned!

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8 minutes ago, Guard Lane said:

Watching the news, Kabul about to fall to the Taliban. A day of total shame and disgrace for the US especially & UK  abandoning the Afghan people. 

20 years wasted, thousands of lives lost for nothing, billions of dollars squandered. Looks as if the so called war on terror has been all but abandoned!

Exacrly how long were rhey supposed to train the afghan army for.  Watched an interview this lorning with a disabled verteran this moening, who said these so cslled forces had been hetting trained for iber 5 years, yet the first sign of any combat and they wilt and capitulate.

Until the money behind these so called terrorists is stopoed, nothing will change.

Also isnt it just a coincidence that the pandemic seems to be easing, climate change becomes front and centre and the gravy train looks to be threatened, then the war in afghanistan restarts.....

Its all one big massive s**tfest and the 1% will get even richer off all of it 

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1 minute ago, Beaker71 said:

Exacrly how long were rhey supposed to train the afghan army for.  Watched an interview this lorning with a disabled verteran this moening, who said these so cslled forces had been hetting trained for iber 5 years, yet the first sign of any combat and they wilt and capitulate.

Until the money behind these so called terrorists is stopoed, nothing will change.

Also isnt it just a coincidence that the pandemic seems to be easing, climate change becomes front and centre and the gravy train looks to be threatened, then the war in afghanistan restarts.....

Its all one big massive s**tfest and the 1% will get even richer off all of it 

But to go and just abandon the Afghan people, NATO could have continued to keep a small presence there to keep some semblance of stability.

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The only thing the West has achieved in the middle East, as well as some of north africa, is to destabilise the entire region and allow Al qaeda and the talliban to get a stronghold. 

No one would disagree that the likes of Saddam Hussein were terrible people. But they kept a semblance of peace in the region. 

The US led coalition just created a power vacuum that the terrorists gleefully filled., and has led to countless life lost. 

Not just overseas, but innocent civilians in this country and others from terror attacks 

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56 minutes ago, Guard Lane said:

Watching the news, Kabul about to fall to the Taliban. A day of total shame and disgrace for the US especially & UK  abandoning the Afghan people. 

20 years wasted, thousands of lives lost for nothing, billions of dollars squandered. Looks as if the so called war on terror has been all but abandoned!

That is because the whole idea that you can change the culture of a foriegn country into a mirror image of your own by military means is not viabie. Look at the shambles of Vietnam, look what happened when the British left India, look at the mess in the Middle East.

The best we can get out of this is that the Taliban want to deal with the rest of the world after they have power so other countries may have some influence. 

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Afghanistan,Libya and Iran. Would it have been  better if the West hadn't intervened in these Countries ? Russia tried to tame Afghanistan but failed as well. It seems to be that every time we send troops and then a few years later pull them out and they are no better off.Maybe worse off. 

       There are people who will benefit from these wars but certainly not the people of those Countries mentioned. Soldiers have paid with their lives in trying to do the impossible.

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Heard Rory Stewart mention, Afghanistan has for 150 years been ruled by regional warlords, those regional forces make up the Taliban, who aren’t a single entity.  That's why they sacked the country in a week, the warlords that make up the Taliban already basically controlled their respective regions.  Is part of the wider 1000 odd year culture war between Islamic states and the West. $1tn, 175000 dead, the horror goes well beyond the hundreds of deceased British servicemen mentioned by the PM earlier.  Was probably a historically massive cock up, removing Afghan air support - given how US, UK and Germany tend to have fraught wars in the last 100 years.  

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11 minutes ago, RAG said:

 Is part of the wider 1000 odd year culture war between Islamic states and the West. 

Exactly. you can't fight a culture war with ordinance and military personel. They went in after Bin Laden then the old "mission creep" set in and leaders in the West thought they could take over the culture of the country with investment and education. It has never worked in the past and it didn't work in afgahnistan.

  

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11 hours ago, gdevoy said:

Exactly. you can't fight a culture war with ordinance and military personel. They went in after Bin Laden then the old "mission creep" set in and leaders in the West thought they could take over the culture of the country with investment and education. It has never worked in the past and it didn't work in afgahnistan.  

Apparently there was no real central command or airforce in the Afghan forces, which after 20 years and the Talibans walkover would suggest a puppet government. 
Aside from that, was a different sort of conflict, the first that really used drones, which was never going to ‘win the hearts and minds’ of an invaded country. 

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21 minutes ago, Wrangodog said:

Education is the only way for that country to improve but are they, girls in particular, going to get it ?  

Rhetorical question surely? Girls more likely to be summarily executed in the street than allowed to go to school under that shower. 
Whole thing is a complete shambles. Politicians do not have a clue what they are doing when they send the military into these places, when they’re there, or when they pull out. But it is always the ordinary people of the invaded country who pay the highest price in the long run…
 

 

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28 minutes ago, Wrangodog said:

Education is the only way for that country to improve but are they, girls in particular, going to get it ?  

The people in charge see no value in education, particularly educated girls.

Neplam-ing them for 20 years from 30,000 ft using drones has apparently failed to change their attitudes. Cant imaginge why. 

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19 hours ago, EKX16 said:

Afghanistan,Libya and Iran. Would it have been  better if the West hadn't intervened in these Countries ? Russia tried to tame Afghanistan but failed as well. It seems to be that every time we send troops and then a few years later pull them out and they are no better off.Maybe worse off. 

       There are people who will benefit from these wars but certainly not the people of those Countries mentioned. Soldiers have paid with their lives in trying to do the impossible.

Isn't that the whole point of the army ? Some useless politician sends you to do a job that they wouldn't do themselves. It's a job where you accept orders, there is always the chance of serious injury or death. Instead of keeping a minimum number of soldiers we have this anglo centric belief that we are still a might to be reckoned with. Don't pay people to kill, pay them to build and repair our infrastructure. We are a military nonentity that won't accept it. China, the US, and to a lesser extent Russia, are the only players in this game, but fools like Johnston pander to the "we won the war " mentality. 

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

The people in charge see no value in education, particularly educated girls.

Neplam-ing them for 20 years from 30,000 ft using drones has apparently failed to change their attitudes. Cant imaginge why. 

Seems the tosser johnson was too busy larking about with olympians and that other tosser Raab decideded to go on holiday as the drama unfolded absolute cretins

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6 minutes ago, killie1961 said:

Seems the tosser johnson was too busy larking about with olympians and that other tosser Raab decideded to go on holiday as the drama unfolded absolute cretins

Not their problem. Only things they need to worry about are their offshore investments and back-handers and maybe staying out the jail. These pricks care nothing for our country so why would they care about Afghanistan?? 

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16 minutes ago, Twonky65 said:

How about live and let live?Who are we to tell people how to live their lives?

 

Just because we like things a certain way in the west, doesn't make it right for everybody.

While your second point is absolutely true, the trouble is there are some subcultures so antithetical to rational thinking that they won't live and let live.  The Taliban have and will continue to oppress, torture and execute people, primarily women under the delusional rationale of fundamentalism.

That said, I'm not sure there is an answer.  Even permanent occupation would just foster more and more instability.  Only the slow creep of global human progress toward rationality has ever really changed these insular cultures and, unfortunately, western civilisation has a horrific habit of stalling that progress for local influence instead.

There may be a day that comes where relgious fundamentalism (along with the rest of irrational belief systems) is seen as the silly and childish thing it is, but if the species survives I suspect we'll be colonising other planets before that happens.

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18 minutes ago, Twonky65 said:

How about live and let live?Who are we to tell people how to live their lives?

 

Just because we like things a certain way in the west, doesn't make it right for everybody.

Aye, live and let live. As long as you're a man an believe in Allah, if not, your life is going to be sh!t.

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A totally un  winnable war, the Taliban had no intention of ever taking a step back, since they were expertly trained in guerrilla warfare by UK Forces to ward of those damned Russkis. Bush and Blair then thought it a good idea to plough in there looking for Bin Laden, who was actually living it up in Pakistan, a country that we send substantial sums to every year??????

Just who is bankrolling the Taliban nowadays ? Russia- Nope, US -Nope, UK - Nope, China - Very unlikely given how friendly they are with Putin, so really it can only be a country that the West and East substantially prop up every year, I always find myself asking what it was all for? to burn the poppy fields?, to allow the Afghans to self govern? was never going to work.

So, Plan W ? As in What do we do now? Cannot see there being any support from the US people in sending their lads to die again, we have next to no Forces anymore, I honestly haven't a clue, and sadly that can be said for a large number of Governments.

One thing for sure is that there are going to be millions of displaced innocent people that need helping, and not one country can seriously fail to help as we have all left them to a fate worse than death in many ways.

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1 hour ago, Lorielus said:

There may be a day that comes where relgious fundamentalism (along with the rest of irrational belief systems) is seen as the silly and childish thing it is, but if the species survives I suspect we'll be colonising other planets before that happens.

There are plenty if silly, childish and self contradictory ideas in our super advanced culture here in the West. We believe in live and let live, respect the differences, everybody's world view is equally valid. That is until they do something you find offensive and then you are totally justified in sending in the Paras.

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The US may have been the ‘good guy’ during WW2, since then it’s been continual interference in other countries affairs to achieve a regime that suits them. Iran / Vietnam / Laos / Cambodia / Chile / Cuba / Somalia / Iraq & many more.

Western media supports this narrative. 2004 I spent 3 months travelling through the Middle East and it was nothing like what we’re told.

As a UK passport holder I had to scratch around Eastern Turkey for weeks to gain an Iranian visa -Iran is a fantastic country, not one seconds hassle, no one tried to kidnap me or question why I was there. Incredibly  friendly, stunning sites such as the Islamic Square in Esfahan, people inviting you for tea, visit their house, incredible hospitality. 

Syria was much the same ‘welcome to Syria’ everywhere you went, both countries were very advanced and developed, in Syria, Christianity was openly practiced.

But no the Americans and our puppet Blair decide to invade Iraq based on lies, Bush not understanding the basic difference between Shia and Sunni, didn’t realise he was lifting the lid off the pressure cooker and what happened was so predictable, creation of ISiS, destruction of Mosul, destabilising Syria and atrocities at world class sites such as Palmyra.

I recall US incursions into Cambodia during the Vietnam War leading to the formation of the Khmer Rouge and the subsequent genocide in Cambodia. History repeats itself over and over again, US interference leads to instability, terror groups, oppression and chaos.

One can only hope what happened yesterday leads to the US staying at home in future and getting their own country sorted! 

Edited by Guard Lane
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46 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

There are plenty if silly, childish and self contradictory ideas in our super advanced culture here in the West. We believe in live and let live, respect the differences, everybody's world view is equally valid. That is until they do something you find offensive and then you are totally justified in sending in the Paras.

No disagreement from me on any of that.  Religion still pervades the west, as do political beliefs that we start to hold often with good intent and yet refuse to change our minds about because of tribalism or myopia (the Labour, Tory, SNP stalwarts in some of the other threads are perfect evidence of that).  Irrationality is everywhere in a plethora of forms, and moving beyond it is an excruitiatingly slow process.

Edited by Lorielus
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