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25 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Tell me the date you last witnessed us winning against Hibs at Easter Road?

No. But just recently we finished third in the league higher than the one we are in now. I think that shows the recent direction of travel of the club. Hopefully that will change soon. 

Edited by historyman
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Just now, historyman said:

No. But just recently we finished third in the league higher than the one we are in now. I think that shows the recent direction of travel of the club. 

You can’t have been following us long if you think third is our natural position. How many times did we beat Hibs at Easter Road that season btw?

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12 minutes ago, historyman said:

Plenty people on here don’t see to be too upset at losing the game. Look back at the posts and you will see that. That seems to be the approach these days. 

I don't understand the "these days" there. To me, these are new days as a Championship club. With the limitations we have as a relegated club I think not getting too upset about playing fairly well and falling short away against one of the best top flight teams seems about right? 

Would feel more of a missed opportunity if there was some obvious deficiency in the way we went about the game, but didn't see too much to fault in the way it was managed. 

Would also feel more that way if it was anyone below Hibs, Aberdeen and St Johnstone but I think they are in a mini league of their own in terms of quality just at the moment. 

I'm disappointed but not too upset. 

Edited by mitch14
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Jack Ross is a good manager that has done a very good job in turning Hibs into a very good team with good players. Look at the quality they have. They still have some weaknesses but in general he has built a decent squad. They are better than us hence why I expected that we’d lose. We need to accept that the Premiership quality players that we had last season weren’t Premiership quality at all as they failed against a decent Championship team. 

We are in a rebuilding phase. The most important thing is winning the league and getting up as the better players want to play in the Premiership. 

The team we have this season looks better than last year and I don’t think the current squad of players would have got us relegated. 

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2 minutes ago, Zorro said:

You can’t have been following us long if you think third is our natural position. How many times did we beat Hibs at Easter Road that season btw?

Since the late 70’s actually but since it has been achieved I see no reason why it couldn’t have been maintained. The problem now is that there isn’t even the believe that it can be be achieved again. Who knows what would have happened if we got a good replacement for SC. Are we saying he’s the only manager in the game who could get a third place with Killie? Good as he is I don’t believe that. We were a strong team for years in the past why not again? We had the basis but we blew it spectacularly. 

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16 minutes ago, Zorro said:

You can’t have been following us long if you think third is our natural position. How many times did we beat Hibs at Easter Road that season btw?

Its a fair point that we could have gone to Easter Road at this stage in the competion with SC in charge and the team he had and still come away with the same result.

Dissapointed to lose but I dont think it tells us much about how we will compare with the other teams we are competing with for promotion.

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29 minutes ago, mitch14 said:

Key question though - what isn't being done which should be being done - and what should we doing about it? 

I really struggling all the accepting failure stuff. 

We need a striker and the club feel the same way. We've built a new squad from scratch which looks pretty good to me. Some questions at boardroom level seem fair enough given the last few years. 

But what am I not doing that I should be? Typing that I'm furious a championship club lost to a good Hibs side? Placard outside the Frank Beattie asking for Bowie out? 

I genuinely don't understand what it is you want from the fans? 

Without that it just sounds like a moan and dictating to other fans what they should think. Fans are entitled to think whatever they like. 

All fair points. I’ve posted a lot in this over the 2 years I’ve been held these views and I won’t attempt to go over again. In short, we need a new figure head at the club. This can be a plus 1 or it can be instead of some of the current board members. But the priority is a new leader. The first phase is for fans is to wake up and see the reality. The second phase is for fans groups representatives to start the agitation process. Rather than cosey up, start delivering messages about our concerns. First material change would be new Trust rep when the next voting opportunity arises.  No reflection on hard work or contribution by incumbent but effecting the required changes probably needs a new broom.  I’m not in the Trust but can’t ignore the leverage it has through it’s board rep. A new face with a clear remit to fully represent the views of the fans/trust members. Not be afraid to ruffle feathers. Healthy tension in the board room is a must. This can be an amicable evolution from the current set up. Change driven by leveraged consensus. The alternative would best be avoided but there would come a point - we have seen this before - when change requires a more direct approach. But that’s certainly not something I’m advocating.

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12 minutes ago, historyman said:

Since the late 70’s actually but since it has been achieved I see no reason why it couldn’t have been maintained.

Is this a genuine statement?

At a bare minimum, there are Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, and Dundee United with significantly bigger budgets than us when we are in the top flight.    Ignoring the likes of any artificially bankrolled teams like Ross County, those are four perfectly sound reasons why it can't be maintained.  We would have to rely on all four of them consistently underperforming their budgets while we overperformed ours.

While a long-term approach as TheBigGuy suggest may be tenable to push toward that, it requires disporportionate growth of the club that has only ever been achieved through rich investors in our history (since to my knowledge we have no borrowing facilities to speculate with), so to accomplish it "naturally" would take a generational effort at a minimum.

Maintaining third from the position we were in with a squad that was already in need of refreshing is nothing short of a fantasy.

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9 minutes ago, historyman said:

Since the late 70’s actually but since it has been achieved I see no reason why it couldn’t have been maintained. The problem now is that there isn’t even the believe that it can be be achieved again. Who knows what would have happened if we got a good replacement for SC. Are we saying he’s the only manager in the game who could get a third place with Killie? Good as he is I don’t believe that. We were a strong team for years in the past why not again? We had the basis but we blew it spectacularly. 

Why stop there? We’ve won the league before so anything less should be considered failure. That means even SC flopped spectacularly. Or don’t you believe enough?
 

The SC era should be looked back on with great fondness but instead it’s become a huge millstone around our neck. It has made some fans lose all sense of perspective- with some, I even question their grip on reality. 15 years since we last won at Easter Road and folk are genuinely throwing their toys out of the pram and calling for boardroom change on the back of this result. 
 

The most laughable thing is that the most vocal one is the same one who 100% backed the players who got us relegated in the first place. He’s the same one who defended Dicker and Broadfoot to the hilt when it was clear they were part of the reason we underachieved. 

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41 minutes ago, historyman said:

Yes. And we’re not where we were 4 years ago. Has something perhaps gone wrong? 

Of course, plenty wemt wrong.  The difference is all you can see, and constantly pqeddle is f**king doom amd gloom with a sprinkle of depressive negativity thrown in.

But for us to get BACK to where we are will take a Journey, and a Journey which will be f**king difficult and we wiol lose games against sides a hell of a lot worse than hibs.

The journey started when TW got rid of the cancer which was in our dressing room.  You cannot expect instantaneous results.  If thats what youre looking for then youve lost the plot.

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10 minutes ago, Thebigguy68 said:

A convenient myth which has been allowed to flourish by those truly responsible for the demise.

Yeh how could we forget Cathy dithering on the ball in the first leg of the playoff to cost us a goal or Bowie stumbling like a drunk and taking out his own man to cost us another goal in the second leg. 

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45 minutes ago, historyman said:

Plenty people on here don’t see to be too upset at losing the game. Look back at the posts and you will see that. That seems to be the approach these days. 

It’s been well established that most of us are very pissed off at being relegated and annoyed about how far the club has fallen in such a short space of time, but I don’t think continually covering old ground after every defeat is any use to anybody. 

My main feeling walking out the ground today was disappointment at a missed opportunity, but at the same time I didn’t see anything in the performance to be worried about in terms of our prospects in the league. To me that feels like a reasonable response. What should people have done? Greet the final whistle with a chorus of boos then all come home and rant on social media/fans forums about how we won’t accept this mediocrity? I don’t see how that helps anybody at this stage of the season.

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We played fine throughout the game. In the first half, we were more than in the game. But as quite often happens against higher opposition, we drifted out the more the game went on. I am not surprised as Hibs will go on to finish quite high up again this year. We won't face any teams anywhere near as good in our league.

On to Hamilton next, not seen us take three points easily there even during the SSC era. So hopefully a rare win in front of a big travelling support. 

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1 hour ago, Thebigguy68 said:

But in a quiet moment surely we must acknowledge that we don’t have Stuart Findlay, Stephen O’Donnell, Greg Taylor, Kyle lafferty, Jordan Jones, youssef  Mulumbu or Greg Stewart quality in the team. This is like a reserve team to the killie team of only 2 years ago. Let’s stop kidding ourselves otherwise.

We dont and we had a great squad of players under clarke, it all just came together, none of them would still be here irrespective of circumstances. Outwith Lafferty every single player this season is an improvement on last season going by last seasons performances, and I'd be extremely confident that this seasons team would comfortably beat last seasons, which is a terrible reflection on last seasons excuse of a team considering we have dropped a level.

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4 hours ago, killie billies pal said:

We could do with a figurehead to follow, let the current members continue with what they appear to know best about, as that sure as mud ain’t football. 

We don’t need a messiah type figure. We need someone who knows the football business and can implement a plan.

The present lot are well-meaning but they don’t really have a clue what they are doing and it shows.

We don’t want to be reliant on directors who put in their own money - we need someone who can generate revenue and invest it well in the business.

Someone who can take tough decisions for the good of the business, not pussyfoot around being sentimental.

There’s no sign though that the penny is dropping in the boardroom. 

 

Edited by skygod
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7 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Yeh how could we forget Cathy dithering on the ball in the first leg of the playoff to cost us a goal or Bowie stumbling like a drunk and taking out his own man to cost us another goal in the second leg. 

The issues are centred long before any individual player error in the last day of the season. Decisions on managers, recruitment. Club structure. Placing faith in the wrong folks that made the wrong decision. And not having the foresight or leadership to correct the obvious failings. I’m sure you will appreciate that these are the calls that determine whether a club is heading in a good direction or not. The manager decides who plays. But players can make damaging errors in a individual game and the board or even manager can do nothing about it. But if the same players make the same mistakes, it’s the managers job to fix. If the manager keeps making bad team selections the board has to act. A player cannot get a team relegated. It has been coming because it is damaged at the core.

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4 minutes ago, Gaz of the 20/20 said:

We dont and we had a great squad of players under clarke, it all just came together, none of them would still be here irrespective of circumstances. Outwith Lafferty every single player this season is an improvement on last season going by last seasons performances, and I'd be extremely confident that this seasons team would comfortably beat last seasons, which is a terrible reflection on last seasons excuse of a team considering we have dropped a level.

Wow. Ok. There too big a gap on our perspective to debate this. As I said I think this group can just about - with a new forward - get us there again. And then we can add some further quality to players - and hopefully some younger ones can - that have developed into spl standard over the year.

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2 minutes ago, Thebigguy68 said:

The issues are centred long before any individual player error in the last day of the season. Decisions on managers, recruitment. Club structure. Placing faith in the wrong folks that made the wrong decision. And not having the foresight or leadership to correct the obvious failings. I’m sure you will appreciate that these are the calls that determine whether a club is heading in a good direction or not. The manager decides who plays. But players can make damaging errors in a individual game and the board or even manager can do nothing about it. But if the same players make the same mistakes, it’s the managers job to fix. If the manager keeps making bad team selections the board has to act. A player cannot get a team relegated. It has been coming because it is damaged at the core.

The senior players caused the most damaging error, which eventually resulted in us being relegated, when they decided they didn’t want to play for the Italian with funny ideas about tactics. Player power, not boardroom direction has been our number one issue. You backed the players. You backed their mate being given the managers job. You accused fellow fans of putting our status at risk by backing these charlatans. Now you’ve flipped 180 degrees and are accusing fans of putting our status at risk if they’re not panicking with you now. 

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1 minute ago, Zorro said:

The senior players caused the most damaging error, which eventually resulted in us being relegated, when they decided they didn’t want to play for the Italian with funny ideas about tactics. Player power, not boardroom direction has been our number one issue. You backed the players. You backed their mate being given the managers job. You accused fellow fans of putting our status at risk by backing these charlatans. Now you’ve flipped 180 degrees and are accusing fans of putting our status at risk if they’re not panicking with you now. 

I did not back the players over the Alessio situation. I was surprised Alessio was sacked. I shared some of the views that the players were “dinosaurs” and were not open to change. My views have developed over the period - based on comments by people I respect on here - that it was probably  too much to ask. That it was too much of a revolution to have been a success. I’m sure the players were well intended But I was not strong backer of player power here. 
 

I did back the senior Killie players in the face of damaging abuse in the pivotal run in. Why would anyone want to damage the chances of staying up if they loved the team? It seemed logical to try and stem this hate tide when the only way the players could connect with fan sentiment was through social media posting. I’ll never understand this sad chapter in our history.

if player power was a negative it was allowed to persist by BB. It should have been nipped in the bud. I don’t know how in any scenario you can let him off the hook on all this. I really don’t.

 

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13 minutes ago, Zorro said:

The senior players caused the most damaging error, which eventually resulted in us being relegated, when they decided they didn’t want to play for the Italian with funny ideas about tactics. 

I think this is a gross over simplification to just blame the players. Willie Millsr lost the Aberdeed job because the players were not following his instructions. Do you think Wille Millar is an undiscovered managenent genius?

The truth is there is always a huge risk bringing in new ideas into any organisation. The ideas may be crap and the staff may be justified in their scepticism. The the staff may simply not understand the new udeas or how they should work. Call them dinosaurs if you like but ther was a fundamental mismatch between AA and the squad. Rather than trying to apportion blame maybe we should ask how said mismatch came about.

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8 minutes ago, Thebigguy68 said:

I did not back the players over the Alessio situation. I was surprised Alessio was sacked. I shared some of the views that the players were “dinosaurs” and were not open to change. My views have developed over the period - based on comments by people I respect on here - that it was probably  too much to ask. That it was too much of a revolution to have been a success. I’m sure the players were well intended But I was not strong backer of player power here. 
 

I did back the senior Killie players in the face of damaging abuse in the pivotal run in. Why would anyone want to damage the chances of staying up if they loved the team? It seemed logical to try and stem this hate tide when the only way the players could connect with fan sentiment was through social media posting. I’ll never understand this sad chapter in our history.

if player power was a negative it was allowed to persist by BB. It should have been nipped in the bud. I don’t know how in any scenario you can let him off the hook on all this. I really don’t.

 

Why would anyone want to damage our promotion push with constant damaging negativity might be a more relevant question… Especially when they claim standing up against damaging negativity is the reason they backed some “dinosaurs” in the first place. I’ll be honest, it looks more like you just like to swim against the tide. 

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2 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I think this is a gross over simplification to just blame the players. Willie Millsr lost the Aberdeed job because the players were not following his instructions. Do you think Wille Millar is an undiscovered managenent genius?

The truth is there is always a huge risk bringing in new ideas into any organisation. The ideas may be crap and the staff may be justified in their scepticism. The the staff may simply not understand the new udeas or how they should work. Call them dinosaurs if you like but ther was a fundamental mismatch between AA and the squad. Rather than trying to apportion blame maybe we should ask how said mismatch came about.

Yeh I’ve read this nonsense from people who wanted the funny sounding Italian sacked many times before. If we’d backed the manager rather than the dinosaurs, we wouldn’t be a Championship club now. Shape, positioning and tactics are hardly new ideas btw. 

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