Matchday Hibs Match Fred

[skygod]

38 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I just don't think Alessio had the temprament, particulary given the language barrier, to get control of a dressing room of players used to playing at SPFL level. Some seem to blame the immaturity of the players but that is what you get at SPFL level. Some seem to blame the board for not backing him. I dont think they had the resources to back him to the extent he would have need to be backed. 

Which just sums up what an odd, inappropriate appointment it was.

This is all history and the here and now are more important.

You would like to think the board has learned lessons from the last two years snd the recruitment of TW is promising.

But the errors have been catastrophic and we can afford no more. Big rethink needed about the needs of the club, not the directors. 

[MarkyMark]

51 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I agree with your point about Dyer bringing back Broadfoot indicating he was way out of his depth.

As far as Alessio goes you need more than good ideas to suceed. You need the personality to get people to buy into those ideas. Some peope on here seemd to like him because he was foriegn, some seemed to dislike him because of it. For me the country where he was brought up is irrelevant. 

I just don't think Alessio had the temprament, particulary given the language barrier, to get control of a dressing room of players used to playing at SPFL level. Some seem to blame the immaturity of the players but that is what you get at SPFL level. Some seem to blame the board for not backing him. I dont think they had the resources to back him to the extent he would have need to be backed. 

One thing is certain. If the players won’t give you a chance or listen to your ideas and implement what they are being told you’ll never succeed.

We had experienced players who had played under lots of managers who decided they didn’t want to work under Alessio. Tells you more about them than him. Could you see that happening under Clarke? He’d have got shot of them quite correctly. 

The rot set in at the CQN game but that defeat was a result of players not following instruction. 

Alessio wasn’t stupid he knew that he had to curb the influence of the senior players that were against him. 

Set that aside and move on to when Wright came in. A British manager yet the same players still wouldn’t follow instruction. Indicates that the issue was the players and not Alessio. Perhaps they thought they knew best given there years of experience yet we produced the worst team performances in 28 years. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by MarkyMark

[MarkyMark]

12 minutes ago, skygod said:

Which just sums up what an odd, inappropriate appointment it was.

This is all history and the here and now are more important.

You would like to think the board has learned lessons from the last two years snd the recruitment of TW is promising.

But the errors have been catastrophic and we can afford no more. Big rethink needed about the needs of the club, not the directors. 

I agree with hindsight a continuation with a Clarke style of appointment would have been the most sensible thing to do but the fact the players employed by the club decided they didn’t want to work for the manager the club appointed ensured Alessio could never be a success. Add Dyer into the mix and he’s on a hiding to nothing. To then back those players and remove the manager was the start of the rot that continued to relegation and the squad rebuild. Difficult for anyone to argue to the contrary. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by MarkyMark

[Ipkis]

10 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

Set that aside and move on to when Wright came in. A British manager yet the same players still wouldn’t follow instruction. Indicates that the issue was the players and not Alessio. Perhaps they thought they knew best given there years of experience yet we produced the worst team performances in 28 years. 

Spot on. This was confirmation we had a rotten element within our dressing room.

TW has addressed this quickly by getting rid of every one of them at the first opportunity.

[mitch14]

17 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

Set that aside and move on to when Wright came in. A British manager yet the same players still wouldn’t follow instruction. Indicates that the issue was the players and not Alessio. 

Worth pointing out it doesn't need to be an either or though. I think Alessio didn't make a good impression and the players didn't fancy him and made up their minds - which (depending on whether things were truly catastrophicly bad) was wrong of them. But it can be equally true that he was out of depth and the wrong appointment. Best explanation for me is an unfortunate mix of both. 

Not having targets lined up and offering help to whoever the new manager was and going into that massive CQN game without a new striker and reinforcements is one of the worst elements of it all - and that's probably on neither the players nor Alessio - that's our then setup as a club.

It took a lot of moving parts to ruin that third placed finished as thoroughly as we did. 

[gdevoy]

1 minute ago, mitch14 said:

Worth pointing out it doesn't need to be an either or though. I think Alessio didn't make a good impression and the players didn't fancy him and made up their minds - which (depending on whether things were truly catastrophicly bad) was wrong of them. But it can be equally true that he was out of depth and the wrong appointment. Best explanation for me is an unfortunate mix of both. 

 

Exactly.

[Zorro]

32 minutes ago, mitch14 said:

Worth pointing out it doesn't need to be an either or though. I think Alessio didn't make a good impression and the players didn't fancy him and made up their minds - which (depending on whether things were truly catastrophicly bad) was wrong of them. But it can be equally true that he was out of depth and the wrong appointment. Best explanation for me is an unfortunate mix of both. 

Not having targets lined up and offering help to whoever the new manager was and going into that massive CQN game without a new striker and reinforcements is one of the worst elements of it all - and that's probably on neither the players nor Alessio - that's our then setup as a club.

It took a lot of moving parts to ruin that third placed finished as thoroughly as we did. 

If it was because AS was out of his depth, you’d expect a bounce when the players mate was appointed boss. Especially when one of them was still claiming we sacked Dyer too soon and he’d have kept us up, even as he left the building before heading to the Highlands. 
 

Fact is AA was our David Moyes at Man Utd. It didn’t matter what his CV said. It didn’t matter what his personality was. The language barrier wasn’t an insurmountable problem and I’m sure given time Kirk could have picked up some English. The problem was senior players decided he wasn’t the gaffer(SC) and they weren’t ready for change. Later they found out that once you take your foot of the accelerator, it’s very difficult to get back up to speed. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Zorro

[Twonky65]

15 minutes ago, Zorro said:

If it was because AS was out of his depth, you’d expect a bounce when the players mate was appointed boss. Especially when one of them was still claiming we sacked Dyer too soon and he’d have kept us up, even as he left the building before heading to the Highlands. 
 

Fact is AA was our David Moyes at Man Utd. It didn’t matter what his CV said. It didn’t matter what his personality was. The language barrier wasn’t an insurmountable problem and I’m sure given time Kirk could have picked up some English. The problem was senior players decided he wasn’t the gaffer(SC) and they weren’t ready for change. Later they found out that once you take your foot of the accelerator, it’s very difficult to get back up to speed. 

David Moyes was a tried and tested manager.

 

Alessio was a fraud of a manager who is now coaching some team in the arse end of nowhere.

[Bullitt]

Interesting comments from Liam Millar on Alessio on a recent podcast. Long and short is he wasn’t as bad as media made out and he felt his training was the type of training you’d get at an elite level in England. Let’s not rewrite history here and keep to the facts:

The wrong appointment after Clarke,

Nomads was on the players and not him as they should have been able to not lose at home to them without a manager,

Some players threw him under a bus with their cryptic media comments and below par performances,

There was a rot in the team after Clarke that he tried to clear with the release of Broadfoot and introduction of Del Fabro. Something it seems that Wright has also tried to do. 

We need to get away from the Clarke, Alessio and Dyer “what if” chat. We are where we are now and this was a discussion originally about Easter Road. 

Team played very well first half and should have been ahead but in the second half we never recovered from the loss of the goal. Far better sides than us will play Hibs and be given a doing. We are a completely new squad thrown together in a matter of weeks who will only get better and the constant moaning on here by the same culprits week on week when one result goes against the side is tiresome. 

[Beaker71]

28 minutes ago, Bullitt said:

Interesting comments from Liam Millar on Alessio on a recent podcast. Long and short is he wasn’t as bad as media made out and he felt his training was the type of training you’d get at an elite level in England. Let’s not rewrite history here and keep to the facts:

The wrong appointment after Clarke,

Nomads was on the players and not him as they should have been able to not lose at home to them without a manager,

Some players threw him under a bus with their cryptic media comments and below par performances,

There was a rot in the team after Clarke that he tried to clear with the release of Broadfoot and introduction of Del Fabro. Something it seems that Wright has also tried to do. 

We need to get away from the Clarke, Alessio and Dyer “what if” chat. We are where we are now and this was a discussion originally about Easter Road. 

Team played very well first half and should have been ahead but in the second half we never recovered from the loss of the goal. Far better sides than us will play Hibs and be given a doing. We are a completely new squad thrown together in a matter of weeks who will only get better and the constant moaning on here by the same culprits week on week when one result goes against the side is tiresome. 

This 100%.  Lets look forward, the 2md top league in Scotland brought me some of my happiest days as a Killie fan.  We need to embrace this, remember the pain of relegation, and ensure that we stop bickering amongst ourselves and remember that we can be a poaitivw driving dirce for the team, as much as a negative one.

The grounds we will visit this year shouls be taken as an adventure and a warning.  Many of us remember losing to proper s**tty teams in their own hovels  and while this side isnt even the beat side in the oast 5 years, beleive me when i tell the yoinger fans who can only remember us in the top league, last years side, let alone this years isnt anywhere near the worst killie side ive travelled far and wide to support.

Perspective is needed, Patience is needed and our support is needed to get back to where we belong.  Hibs didnt see us as a chsmpionship side, and neither do ANY of the sides in thr league.  Were target No. 1 for a reason, and lets ram that right down their throats and go and f**king win this league.

[Wrangodog]

"Back where we belong". I've heard this many times since the Dundee game. We have no divine right to be in the top division, the attitude that we were too good to be relegated was part of the reason why we were relegated. We are not going to stroll this league regardless of there being no "big" city teams in the same division. Every game is going to be a struggle and every team in the league will be out to take points off us. Raith and Arbroath proved yesterday that they can compete in a one-off game and will be difficult opponents when we face them. Our attitude in the first half yesterday was excellent and we should have taken the lead but we dropped a level in the second half and Hibs took advantage. We're not going to meet teams like Hibs every week but we have to find a striker who can take chances when we are on top or we will struggle. 

[Beaker71]

9 minutes ago, Wrangodog said:

"Back where we belong". I've heard this many times since the Dundee game. We have no divine right to be in the top division, the attitude that we were too good to be relegated was part of the reason why we were relegated. We are not going to stroll this league regardless of there being no "big" city teams in the same division. Every game is going to be a struggle and every team in the league will be out to take points off us. Raith and Arbroath proved yesterday that they can compete in a one-off game and will be difficult opponents when we face them. Our attitude in the first half yesterday was excellent and we should have taken the lead but we dropped a level in the second half and Hibs took advantage. We're not going to meet teams like Hibs every week but we have to find a striker who can take chances when we are on top or we will struggle. 

Back where we belong does NOT infer any kind of divine right to be in the top league.  Its a belief that Kilmarnock should be in the top league trom a Fan.

Neither I nor anyone else said we havent deserved to be where we are, because of a number of mistakes over the oreceding arguably 6 or 7 years (possibly longer).

Also most, barring a few, have also recognised and said that we are target No.1.snd unless we recruit well, play well and fight for the higher kevels of ability that hopefully our recruitment has brought, then we would get shafted 

Instead of having a go at eaxh other, why dont we actually get together and make that positive imoact fans can give.

[Wrangodog]

14 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

 

 

14 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Back where we belong does NOT infer any kind of divine right to be in the top league.  Its a belief that Kilmarnock should be in the top league trom a Fan.

Neither I nor anyone else said we havent deserved to be where we are, because of a number of mistakes over the oreceding arguably 6 or 7 years (possibly longer).

Also most, barring a few, have also recognised and said that we are target No.1.snd unless we recruit well, play well and fight for the higher kevels of ability that hopefully our recruitment has brought, then we would get shafted 

Instead of having a go at eaxh other, why dont we actually get together and make that positive imoact fans can give.

I didn't reply directly to you, if I had I would have quoted your post. It was the use of the phrase that bugged me, you just happened to be the most recent person to use it. Maybe because I kept hearing it on the supporters bus yesterday.  I agree, automatic promotion will be difficult and will require us to stick together. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Wrangodog

[historyman]

Dundee Utd maintained a top position for in the league for years under Jim McLean. 

[Jimmy Superscot]

3 minutes ago, historyman said:

Dundee Utd maintained a top position for in the league for years under Jim McLean. 

The money split back then between the OF and the rest wasn’t so badly skewed which did give other clubs a chance to shine on a less temporary basis. Helped by top managers like McLean and Ferguson, of course. We did the same in the 60s with so many second places in both league and cups before Tynecastle 1965… and we had a top manager as well, of course.

[historyman]

And you have St St Johnstone the only club outside the OF and Aberdeen to complete the cup double and that was achieved with the third smallest wage bill in the league. That’s the kind of success I wish we’d aspire to. However, we don’t. We accept going down with a whimper. Never mind, maybe some day we will be back. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by historyman

[Galdunc11]

6 minutes ago, historyman said:

And you have St St Johnstone the only club outside the OF and Aberdeen to complete the cup double with the third smallest wage bill in the league. That’s the kind of success I wish we’d aspire to. However, we don’t. We accept going down with a whimper. Never mind, maybe some day we will be back. 

Every post on every subject is just one negative moan after another. I feel depressed every time I see you have made a comment. Sad. 

[historyman]

If anyone wants to see what smaller clubs can achieve if they are properly run and managed over a long period of time read the articles on St Johnstone (p16) and Brentford (p17) in issue 411 of WSC. 

[Zorro]

52 minutes ago, historyman said:

Dundee Utd maintained a top position for in the league for years under Jim McLean. 

Helped by wee Jim’s legendary twenty-five year contracts, with an option of another ten years if he wanted to keep you and get out clauses all in the clubs favour if you were crap or injured. It wasn’t unusual for S form players to have to pledge their first born child into servitude of the club before they received their first professional contract. If you didn’t sign he just held onto your registration. The registration documents of players Jim had put out of the game were held in three large warehouses in Broughty ferry. . Different times. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Zorro

[Bbk]

Back on the topic I thought Polworths  shot was over the line these type of breaks will hopefully even themselves out over the season the team competed  well for most of the game but you have to hand it to the quality hibs have especially  up front!

[Lorielus]

1 hour ago, historyman said:

 We accept going down with a whimper. Never mind, maybe some day we will be back. 

That is a complete strawman.   No one accepted going doing with whimper, everyone was absolutely furious.  Most are still absolutely furious, as can been seen from the ongoing autopsy on this very thread.  You don't need to invent things to make up for lack of a valid argument.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Lorielus

[historyman]

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

Helped by wee Jim’s legendary twenty-five year contracts, with an option of another ten years if he wanted to keep you and get out clauses all in the clubs favour if you were crap or injured. It wasn’t unusual for S form players to have to pledge their first born child into servitude of the club before they received their first professional contract. If you didn’t sign he just held onto your registration. The registration documents of players Jim had put out of the game were held in three large warehouses in Broughty ferry. . Different times. 

As I said, Dundee Utd maintained a top position for many years, St Johnstone and Brentford are great examples of well run clubs who have achieved. That is all I want for Killie. It shouldn’t be an impossible dream. 

I’m coming off the forum now. All the best to everyone for the future. Hopefully the club will get back up to the higher levels of the league. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by historyman

[killie89]

13 minutes ago, Lorielus said:

That is a complete strawman.   No one accepted going doing with whimper, everyone was absolutely furious.  Most are still absolutely furious, as can been see from the ongoing autopsy on this very thread.  You don't need to invent things to make up for lack of a valid argument.

This is exactly it. All anybody needs to do is look back to the threads around the end of last season to see how angry and hurt people were by relegation. It’s bizarre that some people have decided a narrow defeat to Hibs in the cup should be the catalyst for yet more hand wringing about where we went wrong over the last two years. 

We’re even back to having the millionth debate about Angelo Alessio who has had nothing to do with the club for nearly two years. All this stuff has been discussed to death on here. Most people want to put their energy into getting behind our current players and hopefully seeing us get back to where we belong ASAP, while a minority seem to be offended that we’re not protesting outside the ground after every defeat.

[GCM]

1 hour ago, Bbk said:

Back on the topic I thought Polworths  shot was over the line these type of breaks will hopefully even themselves out over the season the team competed  well for most of the game but you have to hand it to the quality hibs have especially  up front!

Better angle Polworth's shot

[Beaker71]

36 minutes ago, GCM said:

Better angle Polworth's shot

Not quite Nady Mclaren at Inverness, but f**k me that shouldve been given.