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Shropshire_killie

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45 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

Well that's been the direction of ravel since I started school and I see no reason to think it is going to change any time soon. Wen I started school Kilmarnock was a hive of industry, Saxone making shoes, BMK making carpets, Massey Ferguson making farming vehicles, Glenfield and Kenedy, Glaciar Metal, Barkleys not to metion Walkers. Now there is nothing. All that economic activity sucked don to the anus of the UK.  

What a thoroughly depressing thought. 

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

Well that's been the direction of ravel since I started school and I see no reason to think it is going to change any time soon. Wen I started school Kilmarnock was a hive of industry, Saxone making shoes, BMK making carpets, Massey Ferguson making farming vehicles, Glenfield and Kenedy, Glaciar Metal, Barkleys not to metion Walkers. Now there is nothing. All that economic activity sucked don to the anus of the UK.  

These places were there when I left school bar Masseys and unemployment was running at 10% plus in the 80s.Its know less than half of that.Though I suspect wages are nowhere near compatible plus the job market had very few part time and self employed jobs.The demise of trade unions  put a cap on any sort of workers negotiating wages and conditions 

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12 hours ago, gdevoy said:

SWell that's been the direction of ravel since I started school and I see no reason to think it is going to change any time soon. Wen I started school Kilmarnock was a hive of industry, Saxone making shoes, BMK making carpets, Massey Ferguson making farming vehicles, Glenfield and Kenedy, Glaciar Metal, Barkleys not to metion Walkers. Now there is nothing. All that economic activity sucked don to the anus of the UK.  

And the nationalists, with £1800 per head more public spending than the rest of the UK haven’t created a single job in Ayrshire. Not one. 

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29 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

And the nationalists, with £1800 per head more public spending than the rest of the UK haven’t created a single job in Ayrshire. Not one. 

The Ayrshire Growth Deal has a number of priorities, these are: Aerospace and Space, Economic Infrastructure, Tourism and Energy, Circular Economy and Environment.

The major projects include:

£80m investment that will position Ayrshire as one of the UK’s leading centres of Aerospace and Space activity

£9m investment into transformational HALO regeneration project in Kilmarnock

£23.5m to create the Ayrshire Manufacturing Investment Corridor (AMIC)

£16m Ayrshire Engineering Park will provide expansion and development of Moorfield industrial Park in Kilmarnock, creating serviced and high-quality business space

£21m investment into the i3 area of Irvine building on current Life Science businesses on site

£14m tourism investment at Irvine Harbourside and Ardeer peninsula

£9.5m in Marine Tourism, which will focus on securing infrastructure that supports key components, such as sailing and boating, marine leisure, and recreation

£24.5m National Energy Research Demonstrator Project (NERD)

£18m for the Centre for Research into Low Carbon Energy and Circular Economy (CECE) at the Hunterston Strategic West Scotland Industrial Hub

£10.5m for a new International Marine Science and Environmental Centre (IMSE) based at Ardrossan

£11m for a subsea fibre optic cable to have its landing point in Irvine

£8.5m for a skills and inclusion programme

£3m Community Wealth Building project

£3m in digital connectivity

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51 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

And the nationalists, with £1800 per head more public spending than the rest of the UK haven’t created a single job in Ayrshire. Not one. 

Unless you count the ones they are subsidising at Prestwick airport.Along with ferry’s that are lying rusting and no to mention BIFAB.They have got that touch haven’t they 

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38 minutes ago, Wrangodog said:

The Ayrshire Growth Deal has a number of priorities, these are: Aerospace and Space, Economic Infrastructure, Tourism and Energy, Circular Economy and Environment.

The major projects include:

£80m investment that will position Ayrshire as one of the UK’s leading centres of Aerospace and Space activity

£9m investment into transformational HALO regeneration project in Kilmarnock

£23.5m to create the Ayrshire Manufacturing Investment Corridor (AMIC)

£16m Ayrshire Engineering Park will provide expansion and development of Moorfield industrial Park in Kilmarnock, creating serviced and high-quality business space

£21m investment into the i3 area of Irvine building on current Life Science businesses on site

£14m tourism investment at Irvine Harbourside and Ardeer peninsula

£9.5m in Marine Tourism, which will focus on securing infrastructure that supports key components, such as sailing and boating, marine leisure, and recreation

£24.5m National Energy Research Demonstrator Project (NERD)

£18m for the Centre for Research into Low Carbon Energy and Circular Economy (CECE) at the Hunterston Strategic West Scotland Industrial Hub

£10.5m for a new International Marine Science and Environmental Centre (IMSE) based at Ardrossan

£11m for a subsea fibre optic cable to have its landing point in Irvine

£8.5m for a skills and inclusion programme

£3m Community Wealth Building project

£3m in digital connectivity

Your right absolutely nothing 

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3 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

And the nationalists, with £1800 per head more public spending than the rest of the UK haven’t created a single job in Ayrshire. Not one. 

As you will see from the subsequent posts that is not strictly, absolutely accurate. However I will accept your point that for having been in power at Holyrood for a wee while now they have not really made any significant difference to the general trend. In fact, based on a walk up Kilmarnock main street a couple of weeks ago compared to when I left over 40 years ago I would describe what they have achieved so far as "pissing into the wind".

The real question you have to ask is if they were to achieve independence what woul be different? Would we just simply exchange Edinburgh for London in my anatomical analogy? Right now I see no halt to the trend as the "Jonnie Walker Visitor Centre" is sited on Princes Street. What would the government of an independent Scotland do differently? What would set them apart from the blatant un-ashamed cronyism of the Eton Moron and his school pals? 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

The real question you have to ask is if they were to achieve independence what woul be different? Would we just simply exchange Edinburgh for London in my anatomical analogy? Right now I see no halt to the trend as the "Jonnie Walker Visitor Centre" is sited on Princes Street. What would the government of an independent Scotland do differently? What would set them apart from the blatant un-ashamed cronyism of the Eton Moron and his school pals?

The answer to that question depends, as in every country, on who ends up in power and how competent they are.  The massive advantage of a smaller nation with a modern(ish) parliamentary system is that is not mired in cultural nepotism, meaning that it becomes far easier to hold governments accountable via election.

I would forsee post-independence the SNP essentially dissolving into three parties - one centrist as the SNP stands at the moment, one to the centre left replacing the utter irrelvance that is Scottish Labour, and one left aligning with (or expanding) the Greens, perhaps a new SSP or Scottish Liberal party.

In terms of what they could (as of course no one can say what they actually will do) accomplish, I'd hope for pure pragmatism, e.g. get away from the idea that centre high streets as retail hubs matter at all.  Community hubs, yes, retail hubs no.

Similarly, to step away from this idea that localised employment is a solution to unemployment - human endeavour no longer needs to be tired to econmic production and hasn't really for a couple of decades now.  The status quo serves only a few, and doesn't even serve them usefully - it's purely intangible status.  The idea that there will be "jobs for all" is not realistic, nor is it necessary, and only physical point-of-delivery roles need to be local.  We live in what should be a post-scarcity world and only economic and social inertia keeps us from realising that reality.  UBI and/or direct delivery of services to the individual without requiring employment isn't just feasible, it's absolutely inevitable, and it's just the fetishism of "reap what you sow" that's holding it back at this point.

These sea changes become easier to deliver in a small nation with a modern electoral system because power is no longer generational, and reduces public susceptibility to cults of personality.  In other words, the smaller the system, the easier it is to break the status quo.

The biggest barrier will be the inevtiable economic turmoil that follows independence as the public sector in scotland is (fairly drastically) downsized over a decade or so (at least); EU membership is regained (or at least single market access initially) and (depending on timing) pandemic recovery is required.

Edited by Lorielus
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On 9/9/2021 at 7:40 PM, Cheviotstag said:

....apologies for being a Luddite incapable of posting the link. Bella Caledonia reposted it the other night on Twitter.  Blyth is pro-Indy, but the fact he does not shy away from the complexity makes him worth a listen to whatever side of the Indy fence you are on.

https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-david-mcwilliams-podcast/episode/when-scotland-rises-80213308

.....I got technical assistance from a 9 year old!

 

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On 9/10/2021 at 10:03 AM, Wrangodog said:

The Ayrshire Growth Deal has a number of priorities, these are: Aerospace and Space, Economic Infrastructure, Tourism and Energy, Circular Economy and Environment.

The major projects include:

£80m investment that will position Ayrshire as one of the UK’s leading centres of Aerospace and Space activity

£9m investment into transformational HALO regeneration project in Kilmarnock

£23.5m to create the Ayrshire Manufacturing Investment Corridor (AMIC)

£16m Ayrshire Engineering Park will provide expansion and development of Moorfield industrial Park in Kilmarnock, creating serviced and high-quality business space

£21m investment into the i3 area of Irvine building on current Life Science businesses on site

£14m tourism investment at Irvine Harbourside and Ardeer peninsula

£9.5m in Marine Tourism, which will focus on securing infrastructure that supports key components, such as sailing and boating, marine leisure, and recreation

£24.5m National Energy Research Demonstrator Project (NERD)

£18m for the Centre for Research into Low Carbon Energy and Circular Economy (CECE) at the Hunterston Strategic West Scotland Industrial Hub

£10.5m for a new International Marine Science and Environmental Centre (IMSE) based at Ardrossan

£11m for a subsea fibre optic cable to have its landing point in Irvine

£8.5m for a skills and inclusion programme

£3m Community Wealth Building project

£3m in digital connectivity

And largely funded by the UK Government, lobbied for by Scottish politicians of every party. Not one job in fourteen years.

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On 9/10/2021 at 1:38 PM, Lorielus said:

The answer to that question depends, as in every country, on who ends up in power and how competent they are.  The massive advantage of a smaller nation with a modern(ish) parliamentary system is that is not mired in cultural nepotism, meaning that it becomes far easier to hold governments accountable via election.

I would forsee post-independence the SNP essentially dissolving into three parties - one centrist as the SNP stands at the moment, one to the centre left replacing the utter irrelvance that is Scottish Labour, and one left aligning with (or expanding) the Greens, perhaps a new SSP or Scottish Liberal party.

In terms of what they could (as of course no one can say what they actually will do) accomplish, I'd hope for pure pragmatism, e.g. get away from the idea that centre high streets as retail hubs matter at all.  Community hubs, yes, retail hubs no.

Similarly, to step away from this idea that localised employment is a solution to unemployment - human endeavour no longer needs to be tired to econmic production and hasn't really for a couple of decades now.  The status quo serves only a few, and doesn't even serve them usefully - it's purely intangible status.  The idea that there will be "jobs for all" is not realistic, nor is it necessary, and only physical point-of-delivery roles need to be local.  We live in what should be a post-scarcity world and only economic and social inertia keeps us from realising that reality.  UBI and/or direct delivery of services to the individual without requiring employment isn't just feasible, it's absolutely inevitable, and it's just the fetishism of "reap what you sow" that's holding it back at this point.

These sea changes become easier to deliver in a small nation with a modern electoral system because power is no longer generational, and reduces public susceptibility to cults of personality.  In other words, the smaller the system, the easier it is to break the status quo.

The biggest barrier will be the inevtiable economic turmoil that follows independence as the public sector in scotland is (fairly drastically) downsized over a decade or so (at least); EU membership is regained (or at least single market access initially) and (depending on timing) pandemic recovery is required.

So with an approximate Tory vote of20-25% in Scotland plus a sizeable Tory vote among the rural SNP vote (see Swinney and Ewing), there would be no centre right party in Scotland. Staggering Brigadoonism. It’s far more likely that a rebranded right of centre Scottish populist party would gain power fairly quickly amongst the economic chaos that followed. As for the SNP disolving, how staggeringly naive to think Sturgeon wouldn’t want to be the first leader of am independent Scotland. I also hope the news gets out to all the SNP voting public sector workers that their jobs are going to be slashed. There will need to be a right wing party to accommodate your views.

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On 9/10/2021 at 12:51 PM, gdevoy said:

As you will see from the subsequent posts that is not strictly, absolutely accurate. However I will accept your point that for having been in power at Holyrood for a wee while now they have not really made any significant difference to the general trend. In fact, based on a walk up Kilmarnock main street a couple of weeks ago compared to when I left over 40 years ago I would describe what they have achieved so far as "pissing into the wind".

The real question you have to ask is if they were to achieve independence what woul be different? Would we just simply exchange Edinburgh for London in my anatomical analogy? Right now I see no halt to the trend as the "Jonnie Walker Visitor Centre" is sited on Princes Street. What would the government of an independent Scotland do differently? What would set them apart from the blatant un-ashamed cronyism of the Eton Moron and his school pals? 

 

 

Given some of the posts from a couple of SNP right wingers on here, nothing would set them apart from a Johnson Government. But I’ve always known that. 

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On 9/10/2021 at 2:38 PM, Lorielus said:

The answer to that question depends, as in every country, on who ends up in power and how competent they are.  The massive advantage of a smaller nation with a modern(ish) parliamentary system is that is not mired in cultural nepotism, meaning that it becomes far easier to hold governments accountable via election.

I would forsee post-independence the SNP essentially dissolving into three parties - one centrist as the SNP stands at the moment, one to the centre left replacing the utter irrelvance that is Scottish Labour, and one left aligning with (or expanding) the Greens, perhaps a new SSP or Scottish Liberal party.

In terms of what they could (as of course no one can say what they actually will do) accomplish, I'd hope for pure pragmatism, e.g. get away from the idea that centre high streets as retail hubs matter at all.  Community hubs, yes, retail hubs no.

Similarly, to step away from this idea that localised employment is a solution to unemployment - human endeavour no longer needs to be tired to econmic production and hasn't really for a couple of decades now.  The status quo serves only a few, and doesn't even serve them usefully - it's purely intangible status.  The idea that there will be "jobs for all" is not realistic, nor is it necessary, and only physical point-of-delivery roles need to be local.  We live in what should be a post-scarcity world and only economic and social inertia keeps us from realising that reality.  UBI and/or direct delivery of services to the individual without requiring employment isn't just feasible, it's absolutely inevitable, and it's just the fetishism of "reap what you sow" that's holding it back at this point.

These sea changes become easier to deliver in a small nation with a modern electoral system because power is no longer generational, and reduces public susceptibility to cults of personality.  In other words, the smaller the system, the easier it is to break the status quo.

The biggest barrier will be the inevtiable economic turmoil that follows independence as the public sector in scotland is (fairly drastically) downsized over a decade or so (at least); EU membership is regained (or at least single market access initially) and (depending on timing) pandemic recovery is required.

I agree with a lot of what you've written, or at least with the hopes expressed and potential highlighted. But drawing together your political and economic schemata, I cannot believe that whether the economic costs of independence are real and absolute longer term, only relatively short term, or just imagined, that Scotland will be exempted from development of the same right wing narratives of patriotism and protectionist nationalism evident throughout Europe from Greece to Germany. Perhaps the pressure valve of being able to blame Westminster has been protective in this respect. 

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

So with an approximate Tory vote of20-25% in Scotland plus a sizeable Tory vote among the rural SNP vote (see Swinney and Ewing), there would be no centre right party in Scotland. Staggering Brigadoonism. It’s far more likely that a rebranded right of centre Scottish populist party would gain power fairly quickly amongst the economic chaos that followed. As for the SNP disolving, how staggeringly naive to think Sturgeon wouldn’t want to be the first leader of am independent Scotland. I also hope the news gets out to all the SNP voting public sector workers that their jobs are going to be slashed. There will need to be a right wing party to accommodate your views.

I didn't say there would be no centre-right party. Nor did I say anything about Sturgeon's ambitions.  Nor did I espouse any personal view of what should happen in the Scottish public sector.  Only what I forsee.

If you're going to argue in bad faith against things that weren't said, I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it with me.  I've no interest in tribal political loyalities, be it SNP shortbread tin nationalism, Tory effetism, or labourite inferiority complexes.

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

 I also hope the news gets out to all the SNP voting public sector workers that their jobs are going to be slashed. 

I think the public sector is about to be slashed either way. Post covid the Tories cant afford it and neither would an independent Scotland.

Edited by gdevoy
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43 minutes ago, mackpomm said:

I agree with a lot of what you've written, or at least with the hopes expressed and potential highlighted. But drawing together your political and economic schemata, I cannot believe that whether the economic costs of independence are real and absolute longer term, only relatively short term, or just imagined, that Scotland will be exempted from development of the same right wing narratives of patriotism and protectionist nationalism evident throughout Europe from Greece to Germany. Perhaps the pressure valve of being able to blame Westminster has been protective in this respect. 

I think that's likely true, and a difficult thing to avoid, especially as there's already a degree of it in the nationalist rhetoric - it may not be essentially right-wing as yet, but definitely has that unhealthy glean of patriotism and isolation - I tend to cringe at mentions of "sovereignty" in independence arguments, given no nation on the planet (from the most integrated to the exceptionist like North Korea) actually stands sovereign and isolated from the interest of other nations - especially small nations of limited economic influence.  I would hope but not necessarily expect that rejoining the EU would stem the tide a little - although plenty of EU nations have seen a similar rise, I do think membership (and in particular freedom of movement) has been a factor in preventing at least cultural protectionism.

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19 minutes ago, Lorielus said:

I didn't say there would be no centre-right party. Nor did I say anything about Sturgeon's ambitions.  Nor did I espouse any personal view of what should happen in the Scottish public sector.  Only what I forsee.

If you're going to argue in bad faith against things that weren't said, I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it with me.  I've no interest in tribal political loyalities, be it SNP shortbread tin nationalism, Tory effetism, or labourite inferiority complexes.

You’re correct, I didn’t notice you were specifically talking about parties arising from the SNP. I apologise. I stand by my view that whoever led the nationalists would want their moment of glory and the bonds in that party would hold the together for a while. I also believe a good proportions of the Scottish people would be at home in a centre right party, as long as they weren’t called Tories. Indeed it is my greatest fear that we would just end up being another centre right country, but poorer, 

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