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Shropshire_killie

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1 hour ago, mackpomm said:

I agree with a lot of what you've written, or at least with the hopes expressed and potential highlighted. But drawing together your political and economic schemata, I cannot believe that whether the economic costs of independence are real and absolute longer term, only relatively short term, or just imagined, that Scotland will be exempted from development of the same right wing narratives of patriotism and protectionist nationalism evident throughout Europe from Greece to Germany. Perhaps the pressure valve of being able to blame Westminster has been protective in this respect. 

 Post of the year. Someone who knows and understands politics. What a pleasure to read, 

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On 9/10/2021 at 10:03 AM, Wrangodog said:

The Ayrshire Growth Deal has a number of priorities, these are: Aerospace and Space, Economic Infrastructure, Tourism and Energy, Circular Economy and Environment.

The major projects include:

£80m investment that will position Ayrshire as one of the UK’s leading centres of Aerospace and Space activity

£9m investment into transformational HALO regeneration project in Kilmarnock

£23.5m to create the Ayrshire Manufacturing Investment Corridor (AMIC)

£16m Ayrshire Engineering Park will provide expansion and development of Moorfield industrial Park in Kilmarnock, creating serviced and high-quality business space

£21m investment into the i3 area of Irvine building on current Life Science businesses on site

£14m tourism investment at Irvine Harbourside and Ardeer peninsula

£9.5m in Marine Tourism, which will focus on securing infrastructure that supports key components, such as sailing and boating, marine leisure, and recreation

£24.5m National Energy Research Demonstrator Project (NERD)

£18m for the Centre for Research into Low Carbon Energy and Circular Economy (CECE) at the Hunterston Strategic West Scotland Industrial Hub

£10.5m for a new International Marine Science and Environmental Centre (IMSE) based at Ardrossan

£11m for a subsea fibre optic cable to have its landing point in Irvine

£8.5m for a skills and inclusion programme

£3m Community Wealth Building project

£3m in digital connectivity

Thank you for making the case for the UK. 103 million pounds each from the UK and the Scottish Government and 45 million from the three local authorities. A perfect example of stringer together. 

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28 minutes ago, Lorielus said:

I think that's likely true, and a difficult thing to avoid, especially as there's already a degree of it in the nationalist rhetoric - it may not be essentially right-wing as yet, but definitely has that unhealthy glean of patriotism and isolation - I tend to cringe at mentions of "sovereignty" in independence arguments, given no nation on the planet (from the most integrated to the exceptionist like North Korea) actually stands sovereign and isolated from the interest of other nations - especially small nations of limited economic influence.  I would hope but not necessarily expect that rejoining the EU would stem the tide a little - although plenty of EU nations have seen a similar rise, I do think membership (and in particular freedom of movement) has been a factor in preventing at least cultural protectionism.

For me I would prefer the EEA option post independence, and I beleive that this would offer the new nation the best flexibility.

Personally i dont see this right of centre or right wing thing at all.  It has been nearly 70 years since Scotland elected such a party, and the current 25% levek for the Tories isnt as obviously right wing as it may appear as a fair proportion od that vote is made of uo Yoons who want London to tell them what to do at all costs.

Imo the tories would drop below the 20% level.  I think the Liberals woild benefit from that drop, and the make uo of the post indy parliament would be nothing like the current numbers and politically we woild require many more coalitions and political agreements and bargaining.

The right wing threat is being largely peddled as a tactix to scare people to allow London rule to continue.

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25 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

For me I would prefer the EEA option post independence, and I beleive that this would offer the new nation the best flexibility.

Personally i dont see this right of centre or right wing thing at all.  It has been nearly 70 years since Scotland elected such a party, and the current 25% levek for the Tories isnt as obviously right wing as it may appear as a fair proportion od that vote is made of uo Yoons who want London to tell them what to do at all costs.

Imo the tories would drop below the 20% level.  I think the Liberals woild benefit from that drop, and the make uo of the post indy parliament would be nothing like the current numbers and politically we woild require many more coalitions and political agreements and bargaining.

The right wing threat is being largely peddled as a tactix to scare people to allow London rule to continue.

If independence happens I agree with you re the EEA.

Your next two paragraphs are wishful and touching.

I will paraphrase your last paragraph and maybe you will help me understand....

The right wing threat is being peddled as a tactic to allow rule from London (by a right wing, isolationist, populist punchline purveying government) to continue.

Is there a taste for this in Scotland, or not?

Edited by mackpomm
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41 minutes ago, mackpomm said:

The right wing threat is being peddled as a tactic to allow rule from London (by a right wing, isolationist, populist punchline purveying government) to continue.

Is there a taste for this in Scotland, or not?

imo, NO there isnt a largw appetite for this.  There is a small apetite for it amongst a small but not insignificant minority in its undiluted xenophobic form.  And perhaps a slightly larger voiume in its much diluted form.

In the main however i just dont see this post independence.

And it isnt just the right wing Govt who peddle this.  Devoy and Mclean do it constantly and perhaps thats their perception.  My issue lies with the use of the word conservative, in the right context it means careful, and risk averse, which is to my mind what the vast majority of Scots are.

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27 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

imo, NO there isnt a largw appetite for this.  There is a small apetite for it amongst a small but not insignificant minority in its undiluted xenophobic form.  And perhaps a slightly larger voiume in its much diluted form.

In the main however i just dont see this post independence.

And it isnt just the right wing Govt who peddle this.  Devoy and Mclean do it constantly and perhaps thats their perception.  My issue lies with the use of the word conservative, in the right context it means careful, and risk averse, which is to my mind what the vast majority of Scots are.

If you believe the vast majority of Scots are risk averse why would they then take the huge gamble of Scexit ? 

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11 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

If you believe the vast majority of Scots are risk averse why would they then take the huge gamble of Scexit ? 

Why would it be a gamble?

Stay in the UK, where were ignored and abused equal measure, we get out voted for everthing and in effect get wjatever england wants, even when its the exact opposite of what we want and need.

Or become independent, which is the normal condition, make our own choices and get what we want and need (within the bounds if normal nationhood).

Secxit is also utter bollox, we arent leaving the UK, we are leaving the political and social union of which we are one of the two founding members.  So the UK nation state in effect ceases to exist.  Scexit is another projext fear term, onw which I thought you we better than, but obviously not.

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2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Thank you for making the case for the UK. 103 million pounds each from the UK and the Scottish Government and 45 million from the three local authorities. A perfect example of stringer together. 

More like stringed along together. There is no prospect of Labour winning a General Election anytime soon, so presumably you are quite happy with a Tory Government for the foreseeable future ?  We voted by a far larger margin than the Scottish referendum to remain in the EU yet It counted for nothing. Is this what your better together means, being unable to act on what the voters in Scotland want ?  

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35 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Why would it be a gamble?

Stay in the UK, where were ignored and abused equal measure, we get out voted for everthing and in effect get wjatever england wants, even when its the exact opposite of what we want and need.

Or become independent, which is the normal condition, make our own choices and get what we want and need (within the bounds if normal nationhood).

Secxit is also utter bollox, we arent leaving the UK, we are leaving the political and social union of which we are one of the two founding members.  So the UK nation state in effect ceases to exist.  Scexit is another projext fear term, onw which I thought you we better than, but obviously not..

35 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

You make it sound like Scotland gets absolutely nothing out of the union , which is patently untrue . Abused really ? You’re comparing us to a sub Saharan or a Balkan country which such language . Pot and kettle re Scexit which I apologise for .

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2 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

Personally i dont see this right of centre or right wing thing at all.  It has been nearly 70 years since Scotland elected such a party, and the current 25% levek for the Tories isnt as obviously right wing as it may appear as a fair proportion od that vote is made of uo Yoons who want London to tell them what to do at all costs.

Imo the tories would drop below the 20% level.  I think the Liberals woild benefit from that drop, and the make uo of the post indy parliament would be nothing like the current numbers and politically we woild require many more coalitions and political agreements and bargaining.

The right wing threat is being largely peddled as a tactix to scare people to allow London rule to continue.

In fairness, there's two different arguments here - one is where the scottish populace is politically and socially today, and the second is where it would be during the economic stress immediately following independence (regardless of whether that "immediately" is a few years or a generation).

Ignoring the first argument, as independence is such a fundamental shift that it will have wholesale ramifications even in the actual demographic makeup of the country (particular if it's followed be membership in the EU or any similar arrangement that involves freedom of movement), then the second heavily depends on education and media representation within Scotland.

Part of why populations get dragged to the right is the cherry picking of societal scapegoats by media and right-wing parties - something they do much more effectively than the left, namely because generally speaking they have greater resources to do so.  A good example of this is welfare fraud.  Welfare fraud is (relatively speaking) a non-issue in the UK, it happens on a small scale relative to other nations with similar social security systems and costs the public little in comparion to, say, wage theft, actual tax evasion, or tax avoidance (though slightly separate of course being legal).  Tax evasion and tax avoidance are talked about by the left a lot, by the right only when forced to, and wage theft is barely mentioned by either, despite dwarfing welfare fraud in both economic impact and social impact.  Even in scotland welfare fraud polls as if it's a major issue - all because media has created an outrage idol out of the issue.

You can see excellent examples in these political threads of the effectiveness of this kind of mass marketing of outrage in order to sway public opinion, by focusing attention on relative trivialities - and you can see the confirmation bias on those that both actively seek it out and (in the era of social media) spread it far beyond the previous reach of media outlets.

It's important to caveat that the right is hardly alone in doing so, nor are any of us immune to it, they just seem to be better at it.  All of which is a long-winded way of saying that, even if you don't believe there will be a swing to the right post-independence, it's important to be vigilant against the possibility.

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1 hour ago, Bonbon19 said:

You make it sound like Scotland gets absolutely nothing out of the union , which is patently untrue . Abused really ? You’re comparing us to a sub Saharan or a Balkan country which such language . Pot and kettle re Scexit which I apologise for .

Yes abused, have you ever, literally ever watched any TV, read any newspaper, watched or heard the baying corrupt f**kers in WM.  Scots are royally abused in the parliament yoons seem to love beyond all other things on a daily basis.

And youre right about the union givijg plenty to Scotland.... we get to have Nukes which were deemed too dsngerous for Portsmouty, withing 30 miles of our major population zone, we get to leave the EU when we voted to stay, we get to pay our population share of the london subway upgrade,  london sewer upgrade and HS2.  We also get to be in wars which have f**k all to do with us, and also we get to pay back s**t loads of borrowing we never had a say in taking on, Oh and we also get to give our neighbours all of our taxes for some pocket money back.

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1 hour ago, Lorielus said:

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that, even if you don't believe there will be a swing to the right post-independence, it's important to be vigilant against the possibility.

Interesting points.
If (a hypothetically independent) Scotland did swing to right, could anyone see a circumstance where a government as right wing as the current UK Tories were elected in a future Scotland?

I'd doubt it. Thatchers ‘toxic’ legacy is still going strong 40 years later, will be same with Brexit. Both Thatcher and BoJo are/ were completely unelectable in Scotland, UKIP, is no majority for a right wing party in Scotland.  
There is in England, if you push the right austerity buttons, while bailing out the banks, blaming the foreigners, playing to the ‘British’ exceptionalism of the Eurofighter, Concorde and Eric Cantona.  Or a spitfire, jumpers for goalposts and bobby charltons combover?  Oven-ready-deal? 2 for €5.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lorielus said:

In fairness, there's two different arguments here - one is where the scottish populace is politically and socially today, and the second is where it would be during the economic stress immediately following All of which is a long-winded way of saying that, even if you don't believe there will be a swing to the right post-independence, it's important to be vigilant against the possibility.

And that is a fsir enough position to take and comment made, my issue isnt with the possibility, but rather the level of that possibility being blown up like some sort of racing certainty by some people.

The conflagration of being careful and frugal and ending up voting for a right wing Government is to me is a preposterous position to take.

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16 minutes ago, RAG said:

Thatchers ‘toxic’ legacy is still going strong 40 years later, will be same with Brexit. 

 

Yeah, I'm kinda confused about where the massive shift to the right came from in 1979. After having been under the post war illusion that the UK was a single nation, at the age of 22 I suddenly discovered that England was a different coutry to Scotland.

Even Thatcher herself seemed to be at a loss. As she said Scotland was after all the birthplace of Adam Smith, author of "The Wealth of Nations", the population was instinctively conservative rather than liberal and had voted predominantly Tory in the 1950s. Why would they not support her?

My guess is that her sort of compassion free, Middle England, Middle Class, economic lassiez fare just never appealed in a country where everybody had to look after everybody else in order for everybody to survive.  

40 years on and it is the Eton toffs who have taken over in the shape of Cameron and Johnston. Again the spectre of the English class system in action is about as popular as a fart in a space suit in Scotland.

My problem is I am not convinced that everything will be wonderful if we just dump the English. There are a load of power hugry wee s**tes lurking in the wings just waiting for an opportunity to screw everybody over. And independence could be just what they are waiting for.  

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13 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

My problem is I am not convinced that everything will be wonderful if we just dump the English. There are a load of power hugry wee s**tes lurking in the wings just waiting for an opportunity to screw everybody over. And independence could be just what they are waiting for.  

This is what I cannot get y9ur hwad around.  You KNOW the absolute shower of xenophobic corrupt bastards who are in total control of the UK, but youd let them continue, because there may be other greedy f**kers who kight try and fill their own pockets in an Indy Scotland?

Absolute madness to refuse to leave a house that is on fire, just in case your next house floods.

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1 hour ago, Beaker71 said:

Yes abused, have you ever, literally ever watched any TV, read any newspaper, watched or heard the baying corrupt f**kers in WM.  Scots are royally abused in the parliament yoons seem to love beyond all other things on a daily basis.

And youre right about the union givijg plenty to Scotland.... we get to have Nukes which were deemed too dsngerous for Portsmouty, withing 30 miles of our major population zone, we get to leave the EU when we voted to stay, we get to pay our population share of the london subway upgrade,  london sewer upgrade and HS2.  We also get to be in wars which have f**k all to do with us, and also we get to pay back s**t loads of borrowing we never had a say in taking on, Oh and we also get to give our neighbours all of our taxes for some pocket money back.

It seems Marie Macklin disagrees with you , according to her it’s the UK govts money that’s allowing the the Halo regeneration project to train 200 apprentices in Kilmarnock . 
As for the nukes , now that the SNP are in bed with the Greens I wonder if  she will take the advice of her new advisor who has put forward the idea of leasing the Clyde base for £2b a year . Which would come in very handy in an impoverished Scotland post independence . 
I take it you’re not into the social model with your last comment . If your attitude was to be prevalent post independence you could expect the oil rich Orkney and Shetland isles to keep what they earn. Far fetched ? The claim that Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK in the last 40years as stated by Blackford cannot be accurately fact checked as the figures haven’t been updated by the Scottish govt since 2013 , see the channel 4 fact check for details . Also what happened before 1980 , perhaps you know ? 

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9 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

 The claim that Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK in the last 40years as stated by Blackford cannot be accurately fact checked as the figures haven’t been updated by the Scottish govt since 2013 , see the channel 4 fact check for details . Also what happened before 1980 , perhaps you know ? 

The last proper figures were over 100years ago when for the previous 100yrs it showed WM retained over 90% of the taxes raised in Scotland as and I quote, “Empire Fees and services”.

The UK give then stopped publishing such data as it was being used by a fledgling SNP as a means of showing how badly Scotland’s deal in the UK was…..   the next set of numbers they started showing came in the form of …. GERS which even the creator described as a means of putting the nationalists down.

We get that you love WM, but to even try and say Scotland is not abused in WM or in the MSM is just bizarre

Edited by Beaker71
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13 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

The last proper figures were over 100years ago when for the previous 100yrs it showed WM retained over 90% of the taxes raised in Scotland as and I quote, “Empire Fees and services”.

We get that you love WM, but to even try and say Scotland is not abused in WM or in the MSM is just bizarre

....which brings the discussion very neatly back to Lorelius' excellent post suggesting vigilance against a move to the right. Particularly when our favourite and well abused "outrage idol" of being continuously shafted by Westminster is removed......who will we blame? Churchill's tanks in George Square, Thatcher's coal stocks in Amsterdam, Boris' Brexit will be no more. We use the English wonderfully, but our complacent exceptionalism, that we are different, may be our undoing.

Of course, the SNP may be lucky, Orkney and the Shetlands may declare UDI and Mrs Sturgeon can send a couple of troop carriers north. It would be nice to see those ferries being put to some use.

Edited by mackpomm
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23 hours ago, Wrangodog said:

More like stringed along together. There is no prospect of Labour winning a General Election anytime soon, so presumably you are quite happy with a Tory Government for the foreseeable future ?  We voted by a far larger margin than the Scottish referendum to remain in the EU yet It counted for nothing. Is this what your better together means, being unable to act on what the voters in Scotland want ?  

No, I’m very unhappy with a Tory Government, so I keep fighting for a Labour Government. I certainly don’t want my children and grandchildren to live in a country with no central bank In the event of a pandemic or financial  crisis, or a country trying to get the biggest deficit in Europe under control, or a country dominated by sectarian conflict or a country that might elect a right wing government under a different banner. I’ll take my chances with Labour, thanks. By the way, the Scottish Govt haven’t created a single job in Ayrshire as stated and your reply merely proved the need for cooperation across the UK. 



 

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19 hours ago, mackpomm said:

....which brings the discussion very neatly back to Lorelius' excellent post suggesting vigilance against a move to the right. Particularly when our favourite and well abused "outrage idol" of being continuously shafted by Westminster is removed......who will we blame? Churchill's tanks in George Square, Thatcher's coal stocks in Amsterdam, Boris' Brexit will be no more. We use the English wonderfully, but our complacent exceptionalism, that we are different, may be our undoing.

Of course, the SNP may be lucky, Orkney and the Shetlands may declare UDI and Mrs Sturgeon can send a couple of troop carriers north. It would be nice to see those ferries being put to some use.

Deary me, thw shetlands and orkneya declaring UDI is amongst the kore ridiculous Yoon propaganda against independence.

I also disagree that the English are used by Scotland as "the issue", its the lopsided union and WM thats the issue, not the english people.  However the voting direction of both nations is most certainly heading in opposite directions, which make rhe constitutional lop.sidedness of the UK ever more stark, and ever more an issue.

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Great to see some of my arguments re the economics of an independent Scotland and the inherent conservatism of Scotland being well made by sone other posters. @Beaker71 really does his case not good at all. Senior members of his party are pleading with their supporters to stop abusing people who disagree with them as it does nothing for their case, but he still calls people yoons and scabs. He also rages nonsense about abuse. I can’t see how these people can’t see how pathetic they sound when Scotland is one of the most generously funded parts of the UK. He then make claims that are factually and demonstrably untrue like Scotland paying for HS2, when the fact is we gain millions by way of Barnett consequentials. His own leaders and economic exports have actually used Gers to make their case in the past abd have confirmed the validity of the deficit.  It is so tiresome when people are in denial of facts that can be found with the tiniest amount of research. However, some brilliant other contributions from people who actually live in the real world! 
 

Edited by Mclean07
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13 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

No, I’m very unhappy with a Tory Government, so I keep fighting for a Labour Government. I certainly don’t want my children and grandchildren to live in a country with no central bank In the event of a pandemic or financial  crisis, or a country trying to get the biggest deficit in Europe under control, or a country dominated by sectarian conflict or a country that might elect a right wing government under a different banner. I’ll take my chances with Labour, thanks. By the way, the Scottish Govt haven’t created a single job in Ayrshire as stated and your reply merely proved the need for cooperation across the UK.
 

What criteria do you use to determine if a job was created by the SNP?

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1 hour ago, Beaker71 said:

Deary me, thw shetlands and orkneya declaring UDI is amongst the kore ridiculous Yoon propaganda against independence.

I also disagree that the English are used by Scotland as "the issue", its the lopsided union and WM thats the issue, not the english people.  However the voting direction of both nations is most certainly heading in opposite directions, which make rhe constitutional lop.sidedness of the UK ever more stark, and ever more an issue.

 

Shetland and Orkney should be permitted to remain part of the United Kingdom if voters in the islands reject independence in a referendum.

That’s the view of ex-Conservative minister the Earl of Caithness, who has tabled amendments to the Scotland Bill currently going through parliament at Westminster. It will be discussed in the House of Lords later this week.

A “yes” vote in a Scottish independence referendum should, he argues, be succeeded by a nationwide referendum on the issue.

The earl’s amendment reads: “A vote in a referendum … which results in Scotland leaving the United Kingdom shall not be binding on the residents of the Orkney Islands or the Shetland Islands unless a majority of the residents of the Orkney Islands and the Shetland Islands who voted in such a referendum voted that Scotland should leave the United Kingdom.”

Shetland voted against devolution in the 1979 referendum but for the creation of a parliament at Holyrood in the 1997 referendum.

https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2012/01/24/isles-should-be-allowed-to-remain-in-uk-if-they-reject-independence-tory-lord

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