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Shropshire_killie

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9 minutes ago, mackpomm said:

In this forum? Where?

someone certainly raised the issue of the shetlands nonsensical independence.  And it was most certainly a unionist, and it was on this thread.  More than I have not only rubbished this, and also pointed out that this is only ever raised by mega unionists when the subject of Scottish Independence is on the agenda.

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3 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

someone certainly raised the issue of the shetlands nonsensical independence.  And it was most certainly a unionist, and it was on this thread.  More than I have not only rubbished this, and also pointed out that this is only ever raised by mega unionists when the subject of Scottish Independence is on the agenda.

I don't see any other mention of the Isle of Wight, apart from yours. It's easy to be tempted by obfuscation, but too much obfuscation will eventually effect your vision and probably spelling and typing.

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1 minute ago, mackpomm said:

I don't see any other mention of the Isle of Wight, apart from yours. It's easy to be tempted by obfuscation, but too much obfuscation will eventually effect your vision and probably spelling and typing.

It wasnt obsfucation, I had previously used the comparison of Kilmarnock and Glasgow to the Shetlands, Killie1971 used the example of Yorkshire.  None of which Devoy can somehow get his head around.  I thought perhaps the example of the Isle of Wight would unlock the Fugue which appears to be in place and not foe the first time.

Simply saying theyre not the same rowsnt wash, because constitutionally and legally they are.

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10 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

It wasnt obsfucation, I had previously used the comparison of Kilmarnock and Glasgow to the Shetlands, Killie1971 used the example of Yorkshire.  None of which Devoy can somehow get his head around.  I thought perhaps the example of the Isle of Wight would unlock the Fugue which appears to be in place and not foe the first time.

Simply saying theyre not the same rowsnt wash, because constitutionally and legally they are.

I agree, they are the same, which is why the Shetland Island Council have informed the scottish government that they are, after an 18-2 vote in favour, discussing self determination. There's always greater consensus than we realise.

 

Edited by mackpomm
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3 hours ago, mackpomm said:

I agree, they are the same, which is why the Shetland Island Council have informed the scottish government that they are, after an 18-2 vote in favour, discussing self determination. There's always greater consensus than we realise.

 

Ha ha ha what a pile of utter nonsense.  When does Kilmarnock or eas ayrshire council decide its also gpinf it alone.

Unionists are a f**king hoot.

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15 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

Ha ha ha what a pile of utter nonsense.  When does Kilmarnock or eas ayrshire council decide its also gpinf it alone.

Unionists are a f**king hoot.

I realised you are getting trolled a bit here, but can I ask regardless of the constitutional questions involved, do you genuinely have a problem with Shetland/Orkney potentially becoming indepedent/devolved and, if so, why?

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40 minutes ago, Lorielus said:

I realised you are getting trolled a bit here, but can I ask regardless of the constitutional questions involved, do you genuinely have a problem with Shetland/Orkney potentially becoming indepedent/devolved and, if so, why?

No trolling as far as I’m concerned just pointing out what you’re asking . 

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7 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

No trolling as far as I’m concerned just pointing out what you’re asking . 

I'm not sure where the line lies. If you know something is guaranteed to set somebody off but are genuinely interested in their answer. Like if I ask one of my fundamentalist Christian friends "if homosexuality is a sin why did a loving God make 10% of his children same sex attracted?"

I am genuinely interested to know how you can ague for a democraticaly demanded independen Scotland but not an independent Shetland under the same terms without a massive cognitive dissonance. The answer seems to be one of chronology. The UK having only been in existence for ca 300 years while Shetland was incorporated into Scotkand in the 15th century.

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18 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I'm not sure where the line lies. If you know something is guaranteed to set somebody off but are genuinely interested in their answer. Like if I ask one of my fundamentalist Christian friends "if homosexuality is a sin why did a loving God make 10% of his children same sex attracted?"

I am genuinely interested to know how you can ague for a democraticaly demanded independen Scotland but not an independent Shetland under the same terms without a massive cognitive dissonance. The answer seems to be one of chronology. The UK having only been in existence for ca 300 years while Shetland was incorporated into Scotkand in the 15th century.

I think it's a reasonable and interesting question to ask. Apology to all for sinking into facetiousness.

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24 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I am genuinely interested to know how you can ague for a democraticaly demanded independen Scotland but not an independent Shetland under the same terms without a massive cognitive dissonance. The answer seems to be one of chronology. The UK having only been in existence for ca 300 years while Shetland was incorporated into Scotkand in the 15th century.

I guess it depends on whether you're asking practically, in which case the answer is because Shetland is an integral part of Scotland as a recognised nation-state versus the Union which is a political agreement between several recognised nation-states.  The latter can be dissolved or altered by another act of parliament (or arguably but unrealistically a unilateral declaration given the rhodesia precedent), versus creation of an entirely new nation-state of Shetland.

I agree entirely on principle though, seems strange and hypocritcal to argue so strongly for one but seem to find the other preposterous.

I know it's very much going off the deepend, but if there was a desire for it amongst the islands, highlands, central belt. borders and perhaps even the Isle of Man, etc., I don't think a Federated States of Caledonia or the like (similar to Micronesia) would be such a bad setup.

Edited by Lorielus
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34 minutes ago, Lorielus said:

I guess it depends on whether you're asking practically, in which case the answer is because Shetland is an integral part of Scotland as a recognised nation-state versus the Union which is a political agreement between several recognised nation-states.  The latter can be dissolved by another act of parliament (or arguably but unrealistically a unilateral declaration given the rhodesia precedent).

I agree entirely on principle though, seems strange and hypocritcal to argue so strongly for one but seem to find the other preposterous.

I know it's very much going off the deepend, but if there was a desire for it amongst the islands, highlands, central belt. borders and perhaps even the Isle of Man, etc., I don't think a Federated States of Caledonia or the like (similar to Micronesia) would be such a bad setup.

I agree with the federated states idea, within the UK or Scotland, or both (...and the Isle of Man could choose which federation to belong to..)

In general I think the question of who has the right to self determination is a tricky one, but that there seem few reasons for any People to be denied change.

https://unpo.org/

Edited by mackpomm
a cloudy day
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2 hours ago, Lorielus said:

I realised you are getting trolled a bit here, but can I ask regardless of the constitutional questions involved, do you genuinely have a problem with Shetland/Orkney potentially becoming indepedent/devolved and, if so, why?

I dont have a problem with it, what i do have a problem with is the support for the divisionary tactics of the british empire on this or any other forum.

I have a problem with reasonably intelligent peoples inability or refusal (whichever fits) to recognise the clear difference between the independence of a recognised nation (scotland) from the politial union it entered into by a treaty and a region of that nation state (the shetlands) alledgedly wanting to leave rhe nation it is part of to form an entirely new state.

And the reason for this is to suit their own political position

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10 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

I dont have a problem with it, what i do have a problem with is the support for the divisionary tactics of the british empire on this or any other forum.

I have a problem with reasonably intelligent peoples inability or refusal (whichever fits) to recognise the clear difference between the independence of a recognised nation (scotland) from the politial union it entered into by a treaty and a region of that nation state (the shetlands) alledgedly wanting to leave rhe nation it is part of to form an entirely new state.

And the reason for this is to suit their own political position

In response to point one, how else would you expect the British state to react to a threat to its existance? It has worked in the past over hundreds of years and works to day in NI.

In response to point two here's a thought, Perhaps you have failed to demonstrate the difference you can see to other intelligent people. Is that your fault or their's. If I explained Euler's method of numerical integration and people said that's bollox is that my fault for not explaining it or theirs for not understanding? 

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20 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

And the reason for this is to suit their own political position

I agree it's difficult to move away from ingrained political mores when discussing such an emotive issue. But I have, by my own lights, a sound rationale for doubting the political and economic buoyancy of an independent Scotland....and many others, unblinded by Eton accents or the mainstream media feel the same. It's not unswerving loyalty to the Union. One of my main reservations is that the economic groundwork has not been done by supporters of independence.

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

In response to point one, how else would you expect the British state to react to a threat to its existance? It has worked in the past over hundreds of years and works to day in NI.

In response to point two here's a thought, Perhaps you have failed to demonstrate the difference you can see to other intelligent people. Is that your fault or their's. If I explained Euler's method of numerical integration and people said that's bollox is that my fault for not explaining it or theirs for not understanding? 

Sorry of you cant understand the difference between a sovreign nation leaving a politicam union it joined via a treaty, and a region of that sovreign nation saying it wants to create a new nation, then the problem is absolutely yours.

I said the problem i have is with the support of those divisionary tactics by people who will say they are Scots, but side against Scotland, and champion another nations continued control over it.

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3 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

I dont have a problem with it, what i do have a problem with is the support for the divisionary tactics of the british empire on this or any other forum.

I have a problem with reasonably intelligent peoples inability or refusal (whichever fits) to recognise the clear difference between the independence of a recognised nation (scotland) from the politial union it entered into by a treaty and a region of that nation state (the shetlands) alledgedly wanting to leave rhe nation it is part of to form an entirely new state.

And the reason for this is to suit their own political position

There are far too many countries to name in the world,  that at one time belonged to a bigger nation state and seceded by force or the vote to mention . 
Whilst literally you may be correct there are differences,  to deny that Shetland can’t is entirely false. You don’t seem to realise the duplicity of your stance and when this is pointed out it’s a yoon or unionist diversionary tactic .

As for giving support for a cause with an argument that suits their own political position what do you call 

“ support for the diversionary tactics of the British empire “ an entity that no longer exists ? 
 

Also I have a problem with your assertion that I’m “reasonably intelligent “ my wife would very much disagree ? 

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44 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

There are far too many countries to name in the world,  that at one time belonged to a bigger nation state and seceded by force or the vote to mention . 
Whilst literally you may be correct there are differences,  to deny that Shetland can’t is entirely false. You don’t seem to realise the duplicity of your stance and when this is pointed out it’s a yoon or unionist diversionary tactic .

As for giving support for a cause with an argument that suits their own political position what do you call 

“ support for the diversionary tactics of the British empire “ an entity that no longer exists ? 
 

Also I have a problem with your assertion that I’m “reasonably intelligent “ my wife would very much disagree ? 

Sorry but this is unionist bluster, and I havent said The Shetlands cannot become independent, just that it is an entirely different situation than Scotland and the UK.

However by your argument when will Yorkshire, or Arran or the Isle of Wight become independent if the want to...

Oh and you might need to tell the WM elite that their beloved empire no longer exists.

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3 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

Oh and you might need to tell the WM elite that their beloved empire no longer exists.

And herein lies my biggest problem. The entire education system on these Islands including the very exclusionary Public School system which feeds into the class ridden administration is designed to maintain an empire that has not existed for 100 years.  

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On 9/13/2021 at 8:14 PM, Beaker71 said:

Yes abused, have you ever, literally ever watched any TV, read any newspaper, watched or heard the baying corrupt f**kers in WM.  Scots are royally abused in the parliament yoons seem to love beyond all other things on a daily basis.

And youre right about the union givijg plenty to Scotland.... we get to have Nukes which were deemed too dsngerous for Portsmouty, withing 30 miles of our major population zone, we get to leave the EU when we voted to stay, we get to pay our population share of the London subway upgrade ,london sewer upgrade and HS2 We also get to be in wars which have f**k all to do with us, and also we get to pay back s**t loads of borrowing we never had a say in taking on, Oh and we also get to give our neighbours all of our taxes for some pocket money back.

 

4C5298D9-D25C-492C-9AAC-65F1C1C1E57A.jpeg

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6 hours ago, Bonbon19 said:

 

4C5298D9-D25C-492C-9AAC-65F1C1C1E57A.jpeg

I know you’re better than this. This response is like reading the back of a book and claiming to know the whole story. So just in case there’s a test, here’s a wee plot note. The U.K. government pays for HS2 by borrowing, around 10% of U.K. government borrowing is allocated to Scotland to pay towards the national debt, this is then used to show Scotland has a deficit, U.K. unionists pat themselves on the back at this jolly wheeze, the end. 

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