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Shropshire_killie

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On 9/17/2021 at 9:51 PM, mackpomm said:

Yes, the Scottish Government's own economic outlook in 2014 used GERS figures and included the statement:

Scotland accounted for 9.3% of UK public spending between 2008-09 and 2012-13, while generating 9.5% of tax receipts - it put in more than it got out. It suggests that tax receipts are currently 14% higher in Scotland than the rest of the UK.

These figures are quoted in the Guardian in May 2014. The source on the Scot Gov website has now, unsurprisingly, been removed.

But an update, looking at the last 5 fiscal periods, might be helpful?:

Scotland accounted for 9.2% of UK public spending between 2016-17 and 2020-21, while generating just 7.9% of tax receipts - it put in less than it got out. It suggests that tax receipts are currently 3.5% lower in Scotland than the rest of the UK.

 

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1 hour ago, Lorielus said:

However, as per my comments on the "Economics" thread, it's an argument over nothing.  These figures would only be valid if the Scottish economy was to bizarrely remain identical post-independence and wholly unaffected by independence - for good or ill there's simply no chance that will be the case.

We agree on the point made above, HOWEVER when the figures are used widelt in the MSM, BBC  STV and rhe bramch offices who all shout look look at how s**te and poor you are, now just get back in your box, they must be challenged in the correct way bt debunking both the methodology, the figures themselves and the incorrect and quite ludicrous assumption that an indeoendent Scoltand will continue to spend money the same way as the UK, including things like Trident, HS2 and maintenance of the palace of westminster.

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4 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

As I say, you clearly know nothing about Barnett consequentials. Scotland has the biggest budget in its history.  Brilliant stuff from @mackpomm. He’s ripping the nationalists to pieces with sheer logic, facts and knowledge. Great to see. 

So if the Barnett formula is so heavily skewed in favour of Scotland why do they want us to stay in this unfair financial arrangement.  Why don't they just let us be independent and save themselves a fortune ?  

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2 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

We agree on the point made above, HOWEVER when the figures are used widelt in the MSM, BBC  STV and rhe bramch offices who all shout look look at how s**te and poor you are, now just get back in your box, they must be challenged in the correct way bt debunking both the methodology, the figures themselves and the incorrect and quite ludicrous assumption that an indeoendent Scoltand will continue to spend money the same way as the UK, including things like Trident, HS2 and maintenance of the palace of westminster.

 

Fair warning:  wall of text alert.

I disagree, arguing these figures grants the premise that the economic viability of Scotland as an independent country is tied to the value of the union.  The argument should be that the economy of an independent Scotland will not resemble that of an isolationist union that makes both economic and social decisions based on the vision of cartel idealogues and instead should make them based on pragmatism, cultural openness and, whereever possible, tempered by compassion.  The argument should be that, regardless of the success or failure of the UK economy, that the purpose of the UK economy is to build and maintain a callous, parochial, and patriarchal society and that Scotland's direction should be antithetical to those purposes.

In other words, I don't care if Scotland is economically a net giver or taker from the UK economy and nor should you - I don't want Scotland to have any part of what has been or is being built in Westminster.  It is a system of both economy and government that needs to be replaced, and since the UK is prevented from doing so by that same system of government, and given there is no realistic option of the UK simply expelling the home counties from the union to allow for a modern UK to be built, Scotland has to leave that union and that economy behind.

Personally I think Scottish independence politicians, for all their bravado around the amount of support they managed to get in 2014, are terrible are making these arguments, because as I say, they keep granting the premise of these unionist arguments and engaging in fights over the merits and semantics of those arguments rather than dismissing them as irrelevant and arguing principle instead.

Scotland and its government should be leading a public discourse over what it wants Scottish society to look like in the next hundred years, and asking westminster and the SNP as the potential first independent government for competing arguments on how to deliver it in precise principle.  In other words, stop arguing about tackling wealth inequality by adjusting tax brackets and welfare credits, but argue about removing poverty as the base economic position in society entirely.  Ask centre-right and centre-left how they intend to eradicate poverty generationally, not tomorrow and not piecemeal, and the centre-right will have no answer.  They'll argue why direct services and UBI won't work because they can't see beyond what already is to what could be, but they won't have a competing solution, and therefore the argument is won by default because it was argued on the principle, rather than trying to argue that Scotland's variation on the same archaic economy will be marginally better or fairer than the UK one.

Edited by Lorielus
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15 hours ago, Wrangodog said:

So if the Barnett formula is so heavily skewed in favour of Scotland why do they want us to stay in this unfair financial arrangement.  Why don't they just let us be independent and save themselves a fortune ?  

Because, it might not just be about money for everyone. Maybe they value the ties and shared experiences we’ve all gone through. 

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

Because, it might not just be about money for everyone. Maybe they value the ties and shared experiences we’ve all gone through. 

That's laughable. They'd ditch us in a flash if the English people were given a vote. We are constantly told, including by you, we are subsidised significantly more heavily than England. Well let the English people decide then if they want to continue subsidising us. Give them a vote. Tell them they will all prosper mightily by being rid of us expensive jocks. Yeah right. 

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

Because, it might not just be about money for everyone. Maybe they value the ties and shared experiences we’ve all gone through. 

I think there would be a serious economic hit to rUK in the event of Scottish independence. There would be other more serious issues like the loss of Faslane real estate etc but it's all diversion. Look over here at how impoverished an independent Scotland would be. Anything to avoid cofronting the real world problems of trying to run a modern 1st world country with a political system designed for the 18th century. An education system that produces Boris Johnston as the best option for national leader and an air to the title head of state who could at best be described as bats**t dulally due to inbreeding.

Edited by gdevoy
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2 hours ago, Shropshire_killie said:

That's laughable. They'd ditch us in a flash if the English people were given a vote. We are constantly told, including by you, we are subsidised significantly more heavily than England. Well let the English people decide then if they want to continue subsidising us. Give them a vote. Tell them they will all prosper mightily by being rid of us expensive jocks. Yeah right. 

And this is the truth, not the genital posturing we get from the troops who spout the party line from the daily Tory loving rags. They want a more Socialist environment but know deep down that under the present voting system they are stuck with the Tories for the small remainder of their life, not wishing to take a chance to develop a better society for future generations. Labour is dead and irrelevant try dealing with it. 

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6 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Because, it might not just be about money for everyone. Maybe they value the ties and shared experiences we’ve all gone through. 

 

4 hours ago, Shropshire_killie said:

That's laughable. They'd ditch us in a flash if the English people were given a vote. We are constantly told, including by you, we are subsidised significantly more heavily than England. Well let the English people decide then if they want to continue subsidising us. Give them a vote. Tell them they will all prosper mightily by being rid of us expensive jocks. Yeah right. 

As the possibility of Scottish independence looks more likely, we see how much the rest of Britain would care about the break-up of the union

When in mid-August YouGov revealed that the ‘Yes’ side in the Scottish independence battle has its strongest lead ever, it called into question how much time the United Kingdom has left.

We know how the debate is in Scotland, but what about in England and Wales?

Opinion in England

Less than half of English people (46%) say they want Scotland to remain part of the UK. Few want to see the nation pull away, however, at just 13%. Most of the rest (34%) have no opinion, saying that they consider it a matter for the people of Scotland to decide.

England%20attitudes%20to%20UK-01.png

English people are marginally more hopeful that Wales will stay in the UK (51%). Only 6% actively want the nation to go, while 36% see it as an internal matter.

Attitudes are very different to Northern Ireland. By far the most common response to the prospect of Irish reunification was that it is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland to decide (46%). A quarter (26%) firmly say they want Northern Ireland to stay, but a not dissimilar number actively want to see the nation go (20%).

Opinion in Wales

Welsh people are less likely than the English to offer the view that Scotland should stay in the UK, at 39%. Nevertheless, this is not an indicator that they are more pro-Scottish independence, with an identical 13% saying they think the country should leave. Instead the difference is that Welsh people are more likely to see it as none of their business, and a matter for the people of Scotland, at 41%.

When it comes to Northern Ireland, attitudes are essentially the same among Welsh people as among the English: 48% see it as an internal matter, 26% want to see Northern Ireland stay and 18% want to see it join the rest of Ireland.

Wales%20attitudes%20to%20UK-01.png

One in five people who voted for the Conservative and Unionist Party would be pleased to see the back of Scotland

When asked how they would feel about Scotland leaving, 15% of English people and 16% of Welsh people say they would be pleased – either for Scots or to see the back of them.

Ironically, given the party’s staunch pro-union stance, it is Conservative voters who are the most likely to say they would be pleased for Scotland to break away (aside from SNP voters of course). Please note that the following figures refer to all British voters, not just English ones.

One in five Conservatives (20%) say they would be happy if Scotland upped and left. This is an attitude particular to Scotland – they are far less likely to be pleased by the idea of Wales (4%) or Northern Ireland (8%) exiting the union.

Conservative%20feelings%20on%20UK%20brea

This figure is almost twice as high as the proportion of Conservative voters who actively say Scotland should leave the UK (11%), indicating a certain amount is frustration at the rhetoric coming out of Scotland. Nevertheless, it is still striking that one in nine Tory voters wants to see Scotland leave the UK.

Matthew SmithHead of Data Journalism

Politics & current affairs

September 07, 2020, 11:54 AM BST

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

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1 hour ago, Bonbon19 said:

 

As the possibility of Scottish independence looks more likely, we see how much the rest of Britain would care about the break-up of the union

When in mid-August YouGov revealed that the ‘Yes’ side in the Scottish independence battle has its strongest lead ever, it called into question how much time the United Kingdom has left.

We know how the debate is in Scotland, but what about in England and Wales?

Opinion in England

Less than half of English people (46%) say they want Scotland to remain part of the UK. Few want to see the nation pull away, however, at just 13%. Most of the rest (34%) have no opinion, saying that they consider it a matter for the people of Scotland to decide.

England%20attitudes%20to%20UK-01.png

English people are marginally more hopeful that Wales will stay in the UK (51%). Only 6% actively want the nation to go, while 36% see it as an internal matter.

Attitudes are very different to Northern Ireland. By far the most common response to the prospect of Irish reunification was that it is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland to decide (46%). A quarter (26%) firmly say they want Northern Ireland to stay, but a not dissimilar number actively want to see the nation go (20%).

Opinion in Wales

Welsh people are less likely than the English to offer the view that Scotland should stay in the UK, at 39%. Nevertheless, this is not an indicator that they are more pro-Scottish independence, with an identical 13% saying they think the country should leave. Instead the difference is that Welsh people are more likely to see it as none of their business, and a matter for the people of Scotland, at 41%.

When it comes to Northern Ireland, attitudes are essentially the same among Welsh people as among the English: 48% see it as an internal matter, 26% want to see Northern Ireland stay and 18% want to see it join the rest of Ireland.

Wales%20attitudes%20to%20UK-01.png

One in five people who voted for the Conservative and Unionist Party would be pleased to see the back of Scotland

When asked how they would feel about Scotland leaving, 15% of English people and 16% of Welsh people say they would be pleased – either for Scots or to see the back of them.

Ironically, given the party’s staunch pro-union stance, it is Conservative voters who are the most likely to say they would be pleased for Scotland to break away (aside from SNP voters of course). Please note that the following figures refer to all British voters, not just English ones.

One in five Conservatives (20%) say they would be happy if Scotland upped and left. This is an attitude particular to Scotland – they are far less likely to be pleased by the idea of Wales (4%) or Northern Ireland (8%) exiting the union.

Conservative%20feelings%20on%20UK%20brea

This figure is almost twice as high as the proportion of Conservative voters who actively say Scotland should leave the UK (11%), indicating a certain amount is frustration at the rhetoric coming out of Scotland. Nevertheless, it is still striking that one in nine Tory voters wants to see Scotland leave the UK.

Matthew SmithHead of Data Journalism

Politics & current affairs

September 07, 2020, 11:54 AM BST

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

So it’s not a load of crap. Always better getting evidence and a reasoned, polite reply. Thanks. I’ve always found the English people in general like Scotland and the Scots. The hatred is mostly on one side. Mind you, as the independence side are not one inch nearer to their goal, seven years after the referendum, it’s pretty theoretical. 

Edited by Mclean07
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22 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

So it’s not a load of crap. Always better getting evidence and a reasoned, polite reply. Thanks. I’ve always found the English people in general like Scotland and the Scots. The hatred is mostly on one side. Mind you, as the independence side are not one inch nearer to their goal, seven years after the referendum, it’s pretty theoretical. 

You just make things up to suit your own agenda,  so you have friends in England, probably about 20 out of a population of 55 m. I play golf with 3 English guys twice a week, lovely chaps, even if they do spout crap about the SG. Mind you one has admitted he would go back down south in the event of independence. They think Boris is a twat as well but doesn’t stop them voting for him. 

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31 minutes ago, Mcilroy56 said:

They think Boris is a twat as well but doesn’t stop them voting for him. 

I have been astonished by the number of rational sensible people I know who think BoJo is somewhere between an airhead and a twat but they stil vote for him because they have been terrified of the the Corbynistas by the BBC.

And yet they still try to tell me the BBC is left wing. Aye, right.

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On 9/20/2021 at 5:51 PM, gdevoy said:

I have been astonished by the number of rational sensible people I know who think BoJo is somewhere between an airhead and a twat but they stil vote for him because they have been terrified of the the Corbynistas by the BBC

Even so-called 'socialists' were terrified of Corbyn and his 'istas ...work that one out! ?

An example of the Nu-Labour 'I'm alright, Jim' effect.

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On 9/20/2021 at 3:59 PM, Bonbon19 said:

 

As the possibility of Scottish independence looks more likely, we see how much the rest of Britain would care about the break-up of the union

When in mid-August YouGov revealed that the ‘Yes’ side in the Scottish independence battle has its strongest lead ever, it called into question how much time the United Kingdom has left.

We know how the debate is in Scotland, but what about in England and Wales?

Opinion in England

Less than half of English people (46%) say they want Scotland to remain part of the UK. Few want to see the nation pull away, however, at just 13%. Most of the rest (34%) have no opinion, saying that they consider it a matter for the people of Scotland to decide.

England%20attitudes%20to%20UK-01.png

English people are marginally more hopeful that Wales will stay in the UK (51%). Only 6% actively want the nation to go, while 36% see it as an internal matter.

Attitudes are very different to Northern Ireland. By far the most common response to the prospect of Irish reunification was that it is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland to decide (46%). A quarter (26%) firmly say they want Northern Ireland to stay, but a not dissimilar number actively want to see the nation go (20%).

Opinion in Wales

Welsh people are less likely than the English to offer the view that Scotland should stay in the UK, at 39%. Nevertheless, this is not an indicator that they are more pro-Scottish independence, with an identical 13% saying they think the country should leave. Instead the difference is that Welsh people are more likely to see it as none of their business, and a matter for the people of Scotland, at 41%.

When it comes to Northern Ireland, attitudes are essentially the same among Welsh people as among the English: 48% see it as an internal matter, 26% want to see Northern Ireland stay and 18% want to see it join the rest of Ireland.

Wales%20attitudes%20to%20UK-01.png

One in five people who voted for the Conservative and Unionist Party would be pleased to see the back of Scotland

When asked how they would feel about Scotland leaving, 15% of English people and 16% of Welsh people say they would be pleased – either for Scots or to see the back of them.

Ironically, given the party’s staunch pro-union stance, it is Conservative voters who are the most likely to say they would be pleased for Scotland to break away (aside from SNP voters of course). Please note that the following figures refer to all British voters, not just English ones.

One in five Conservatives (20%) say they would be happy if Scotland upped and left. This is an attitude particular to Scotland – they are far less likely to be pleased by the idea of Wales (4%) or Northern Ireland (8%) exiting the union.

Conservative%20feelings%20on%20UK%20brea

This figure is almost twice as high as the proportion of Conservative voters who actively say Scotland should leave the UK (11%), indicating a certain amount is frustration at the rhetoric coming out of Scotland. Nevertheless, it is still striking that one in nine Tory voters wants to see Scotland leave the UK.

Matthew SmithHead of Data Journalism

Politics & current affairs

September 07, 2020, 11:54 AM BST

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

It’s not the ordinary population of England that we have to be concerned about, most wouldn’t have a clue or care about the economy of the different countries in the UK, but it is those running the country and the UK broadcasters that lie, cheat and steal whatever they can from the other countries to ensure the “sheep” believe that they are better off together. 

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3 minutes ago, Mcilroy56 said:

It’s not the ordinary population of England that we have to be concerned about, most wouldn’t have a clue or care about the economy of the different countries in the UK, but it is those running the country and the UK broadcasters that lie, cheat and steal whatever they can from the other countries to ensure the “sheep” believe that they are better off together. 

Thats not a baaaa'd assessment! 

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3 hours ago, Mcilroy56 said:

It’s not the ordinary population of England that we have to be concerned about, most wouldn’t have a clue or care about the economy of the different countries in the UK, but it is those running the country and the UK broadcasters that lie, cheat and steal whatever they can from the other countries to ensure the “sheep” believe that they are better off together. 

I don't disagree with the point you are making but I don't think I would have used "lie, cheat and steal". It's more about which part of the story they present and how they choose to present it.

Like if I went for a job interview. I'd tell them about my academic qualifications and papers I've had published in learned journals. I don't think I would share with a prospective employer that I do enjoy going out on the town on a Friday night and getting so s**tfaced it's a miracle I have not wakened up in a cell on a Saturday morning. Am I lying, cheating and stealing?

The truth is the UK is not a charity and all parts contribute to the combined wealth of the nation. Whether you think that wealth is redistributed fairly is all about politics and right now I disagree totally with the model used by the current adminustration.

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