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Shropshire_killie

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3 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

Why the SNP arent labour?  

Just because you're left of centre does not mean you are economically illiterate, which also holds in the reverse condition.

With economics there are more ways to skin the cat than has probably ever been explored in the binary world of UK politics.  Its either boom or bust and all through it from the 1980s onwards the gap between have and have nots has been widening at an increasing rate of knots, to the end at UK level we have right and less right being pushed at the options toe voters.  Neither of which get a look in in Scotland.

 

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

Why? Subsidising business costs isn’t the only way to put money in the pockets of workers. In fact the only thing this policy achieved is to make the rich even richer. 

It’s a well known fact that since 1990 a Labour govt has been better for the UK economy than a Tory one , in general terms . There will always be scope for cherry picking the best policies that suit your argument to be fair . I thought that all capitalist economies were subject to boom and bust ? I’ll be interested to see how you’d avoid this . 
 

I agree with Zorro that business subsidies don’t always benefit the employees , the wording for some grants/subsidies/funding are sometimes “open to interpretation” , that I believe helped the unions get the minimum wage passed in parliament . 

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Interesting from an economist that advises the Nicola Sturgeon and that not so long ago the nationalists were lionising for supporting their cause. Backs up my thoughts for many years that the lack of hard headed thinking will always come back to haunt any referendum. It also backs up what I’ve been saying about criticising Brexit and then wishing much more of the same on the people of of Scotland. When push comes to shove, there will be no majority for twenty years (at least) of economic turmoil with an uncertain outcome. His comments in trident are interesting. I’m pretty sure that would be the first “betrayal” of any independent administration. 

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18 hours ago, Bonbon19 said:

As the SNP considers itself a leftish party and indeed its 79 group were overtly socialist , this paragraph doesn’t bode well for Scotland . 

Yes he seems to take pretty much the standard right wing view on many issues. He attacked a trade union for regaining some of the ground lost in the last decade with their wage settlement. He argues against using the tax system to help the lower paid in favour of leaving them to the ravages of the free market. I assume he backs the Tories taking back the £20 lift in universal credit, putting hundreds of children into poverty. He parrots the Tory line that Labour caused the financial crisis because they spent too much on schools and hospitals. The 2010-15 Tory/Lib coalition borrowed more than every Labour Government in history added together. The SNP were fully behind the RBS and their reckless expansion before the crisis. Salmond’s main economic policy in 2014 was to compete in a race to the bottom to see who could tax the big corporations the least. Given their handling of the small stuff like ferries and running an airport, I’m sure our faith in the Scottish Government is rock solid on spending though! 

Edited by Mclean07
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59 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

A)  When push comes to shove, there will be no majority for twenty years (at least) of economic turmoil with an uncertain outcome.

B) His comments in trident are interesting. I’m pretty sure that would be the first “betrayal” of any independent administration. 

I agree totally with point A) but that did not stop the Tories f**king the UK economy with Brexit

Again I agree totally with B)

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

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Interesting from an economist that advises the Nicola Sturgeon and that not so long ago the nationalists were lionising for supporting their cause. Backs up my thoughts for many years that the lack of hard headed thinking will always come back to haunt any referendum. It also backs up what I’ve been saying about criticising Brexit and then wishing much more of the same on the people of of Scotland. When push comes to shove, there will be no majority for twenty years (at least) of economic turmoil with an uncertain outcome. His comments in trident are interesting. I’m pretty sure that would be the first “betrayal” of any independent administration. 

Worse than Brexit x 10 my arse. Aside from anything if it takes 20 years to stabilise, which I very much doubt it would, then its 20 years worth it imo compared to the s**tshow we will continue to have shackled to our masters who of course know better in all matters. I do acknowledge an economic  plan does need to be tabled that said. 

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13 minutes ago, Shropshire_killie said:

Worse than Brexit x 10 my arse. Aside from anything if it takes 20 years to stabilise, which I very much doubt it would, then its 20 years worth it imo compared to the s**tshow we will continue to have shackled to our masters who of course know better in all matters. I do acknowledge an economic  plan does need to be tabled that said. 

Brexit x10 for us because we’re attached to the rUK, but we can’t be like Denmark because they’re attached to Germany. 

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50 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Labour are complicit on Brexit. 

Labour  were terrified of being on the wrong side of the powerful baby boomer / gammon rejection of ‘multiculturalism’ and extended access of the Labour market to Eastern Europeans around the time of the Euros inception.  Root cause of this was Tony Blairs insistence and push to European enlargement at the expense of closer integration, the pull back we've since gone on to call Brexit.   labour successfully got away with no-one remembering the history of 15-20 years ago by not taking a position on Brexit - and why would JC have anyway? He hated Blair. The Lib dems got no bounce from their Brexit position, despite 48% of the Uk backing it. 
Ironically, the people who were as complicit as Gove or Mogg in the hard brexit we see now, were the people at the opposite end of the debate, trying to overturn, or rerun the 2016 vote rather than accepting the softer TM compromise deal in 2017 or whenever it originally was.

 Just my take on it, my opinion may have changed by tea time!

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4 hours ago, Zorro said:

Labour are complicit on Brexit. 

Mclean07 seems to be very energised by how "not left wing" the SNP are while the previously Labour supporting masses of Central Scotland keep on voting for them. This despite the fact they form less than the most competent government ever seen and seem to have almost one party state dominance in Scotland. (I understand his frustrations here, they have screwd up again and again and again, but just like BoJo down south they seem to be totally teflon.)

However in his frustration he will spare no effort in presenting even the most socially concious policy implemented by the SNP as cunningly and malevolently, secretly right wing. And more frustratingly for me seems to be totally blind to how far to the right Labour have swung in persuit of votes, particularly the Brexit vote.

If you want a left of centre administration in the UK, just like in the USA, you are basicaslly screwed. So you are left trying to find the least right of centre party available. in scotland that seems to be the SNP, down south is seems to be the Tories.    

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38 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

Mclean07 seems to be very energised by how "not left wing" the SNP are while the previously Labour supporting masses of Central Scotland keep on voting for them. This despite the fact they form less than the most competent government ever seen and seem to have almost one party state dominance in Scotland. (I understand his frustrations here, they have screwd up again and again and again, but just like BoJo down south they seem to be totally teflon.)

However in his frustration he will spare no effort in presenting even the most socially concious policy implemented by the SNP as cunningly and malevolently, secretly right wing. And more frustratingly for me seems to be totally blind to how far to the right Labour have swung in persuit of votes, particularly the Brexit vote.

If you want a left of centre administration in the UK, just like in the USA, you are basicaslly screwed. So you are left trying to find the least right of centre party available. in scotland that seems to be the SNP, down south is seems to be the Tories.    

If you don’t understand that giving the better off including the richest in our society freebies that poor people are already getting is regressive, I don’t think I can help you. Meanwhile children can’t get access to mental health care for years due to lack of staff while the ladies in Bearsden and Milngavie lap up their free prescriptions, travel, council tax freezes etc etc. By the way, Government’s getting voted in doesn’t mean they are right, otherwise that would make the Tories right and Donald Trump in the past. 

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5 hours ago, Shropshire_killie said:

Worse than Brexit x 10 my arse. Aside from anything if it takes 20 years to stabilise, which I very much doubt it would, then its 20 years worth it imo compared to the s**tshow we will continue to have shackled to our masters who of course know better in all matters. I do acknowledge an economic  plan does need to be tabled that said. 

I suspect Mark Blyth knows a little bit more than you. Nicola seems to think so. “Our Masters”.....honestly mate, that talk gets you nowhere. It just sounds so needy and unattractive. 

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Labour introduced working tax credits, state subsidising pay from multibillion pound organisations, who were also dodging tax all over the place while wee gordy sold off the fanily gold.

Mic drop  walks off stage.  Debate won.

The absolute pish mr mclean will spout to support his bizarre notion that amongst all the peoples and nations on this planet, only the Scots are incapable of managimg their own nation and must hand it to their longest and greatest advesary to decide what is done.

You and Manky Jaiket would get on gloriously.  Same warped sense of reality, although admittedly you have stopped short of his claim that it is morally wrong for Scotland to think it can manage itself, but your posts all carry the same sad delusional bulls**t theme.

Now where is that block button again.

Edited by Beaker71
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2 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Labour introduced working tax credits, state subsidised pay from kuktibikkion pound organisations.

Mic drop  walks off stage.  Debate won.

The absolute pish mr mclean will spout to support his bizarre notion that akongst all the peoples and nations on this planet, only the Scots are incapabke of managimg thwir owm nation and must hand it to their longest and greatest advesary to decide what is done.

You and Manky Jaiket would get on gloriously.  Same warped sense of reality, although admittedly you have atoppwd short of his clakm that it is morally wrong for Sdotland to think it can manage itself, but your posts all carry the same sad delysional bukks**t theme.

Now where is thay block button again.

You really need someone to proof read your posts. Almost unintelligible, along with your views. Another one who disapproves of a centre left government using the tax system to help hard pressed families. Unbelievable. These people who claim to want a fairer society in a new Scotland should shudder as we hear these free market, right wing views being espoused by these people. They want to take away money from poor people’s monthly income and leave them at the mercy of big business. I can hardly believe it myself. By the way “ our longest and greatest adversary”. The people we fought with against fascism. That says it all. I must tell two of my kids that they are my longest and greatest adversary. Will any decent independence supporter come on and condemn this stuff? 

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1 minute ago, Mclean07 said:

You really need someone to proof read your posts. Almost unintelligible, along with your views. Another one who disapproves of a centre left government using the tax system to help hard pressed families. Unbelievable. These people who claim to want a fairer society in a new Scotland should shudder as we hear these free market, right wing views being espoused by these people. They want to take away money from poor people’s monthly income and leave them at the mercy of big business. I can hardly believe it myself. By the way “ our longest and greatest adversary”. The people we fought with against fascism. That says it all. I must tell two of my kids that they are my longest and greatest adversary. Will any decent independence supporter come on and condemn this stuff? 

Youve actually just supported givernment subsidising big business and then accuse me of being sgainst a left of centre govt.

You also insert your own horses**t into the comment, where did I say take money from poor people to give to big business.  What I said was Labour had and did subsidise big business, what the6 should have done is close the tax loop holes to stop the tax evasion and bring in a working wage (the SNP have tried that but as oer the main powers to enforcw that are reserved!)

If the disdain and abuse of Scotland, its people and our oarliament by the WM elite in these oast 6 years havent shown you we need to get away from them, then nothing ever will.  Youre a lost cause.

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Just now, Beaker71 said:

Youve actually just supported givernment subsidising big business and then accuse me of being sgainst a left of centre govt.

You also insert your own horses**t into the comment, where did I say take money from poor people to give to big business.  What I said was Labour had and did subsidise big business, what the6 should have done is close the tax loop holes to stop the tax evasion and bring in a working wage (the SNP have tried that but as oer the main powers to enforcw that are reserved!)

If the disdain and abuse of Scotland, its people and our oarliament by the WM elite in these oast 6 years havent shown you we need to get away from them, then nothing ever will.  Youre a lost cause.

The SNP support tax credits. They are as legitimate as the better off getting pension tax relief or any of the many other perks they receive. In an ideal world, everyone would get a decent wage, but it’s not an ideal world. Even when some workers get a decent wage some of your number denounce them as greedy.  Your former boss Salmond wanted to slash rates of tax for the big business as the central plank of his independence plans. Drop Mike, debate over. 

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22 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

You really need someone to proof read your posts. Almost unintelligible, along with your views. Another one who disapproves of a centre left government using the tax system to help hard pressed families. Unbelievable. These people who claim to want a fairer society in a new Scotland should shudder as we hear these free market, right wing views being espoused by these people. They want to take away money from poor people’s monthly income and leave them at the mercy of big business. I can hardly believe it myself. By the way “ our longest and greatest adversary”. The people we fought with against fascism. That says it all. I must tell two of my kids that they are my longest and greatest adversary. Will any decent independence supporter come on and condemn this stuff? 

This policy didn’t help hard pressed families anymore than picking up the rent tab on their private let housing does. All it is doing is subsidising the rich. The bosses and landlords got rich, the hard pressed struggled on as before. How hard would it have been able to introduce a real living wage for workers or build some affordable social housing, introduce rent control measures or the right to buy for tenants? Labour socially progressive, don’t make me laugh. 

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

What a mess of a post. He thinks making young workers pay to protect multi million pound inheritances is fair. I think that’s the pick  of the bunch ? Best wishes. 

Just shows how detached from reality you are that you think all retirees are sitting on million pound inheritances. The idea that younger generations pick up the cheque for those that go before them is not a new or radical idea. It’s the bedrock social services, pensions and the NHS have been funded on from their inception. Did you think all your contributions went in a special pot marked for your use only?

Edited by Zorro
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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

...free prescriptions, travel, council tax freezes etc etc. 

I presume you want to include providing money for tuition fees also as an example of how the SNP are helping the wealthy at the expense of the poor. What about young people with very wealthy parents who decide they do not want to pay for their childrens education for whatever reason?

It is a well accepted principle that the best way to help to everybody that needs it in society, those on low incomes, the poorly educated and socially isolated is by having population wide benifits. Any kind of means testing costs at least as much to target as the savings from "payments to the undeserving". Following your logic NHS healthcare, conceived by Labour, should not be available to those above a certain income level as they can pay for it themselves and that would just be wasting resources. 

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5 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I presume you want to include providing money for tuition fees also as an example of how the SNP are helping the wealthy at the expense of the poor. What about young people with very wealthy parents who decide they do not want to pay for their childrens education for whatever reason?

It is a well accepted principle that the best way to help to everybody that needs it in society, those on low incomes, the poorly educated and socially isolated is by having population wide benifits. Any kind of means testing costs at least as much to target as the savings from "payments to the undeserving". Following your logic NHS healthcare, conceived by Labour, should not be available to those above a certain income level as they can pay for it themselves and that would just be wasting resources. 

Dont engage, he is totally lost to planet UKOK at all costs.  Absolutely lost in a midden of his own hatred of his own nations wishes for self determination.

I unblocked to see if he would engage properly like an adult, but no he is still as blind as those that wont see, so duly blocked again

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Saw this in the SNP governments program:

A collective pardon for miners convicted of various offences during strikes in the 1980s

A fairly bald statement that Thatcher was a small minded, little s**t of a person, driven by political dogma to destroy the lives of many very ordinary UK citizens". Never, ever saw the Labour party ever offer any criticism of her in my lifetime. In fact Gordo, whoom I generally find to be a reasonable socially minded person went out of his way to lick her bottom.

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I'm not going to bother addressing specific arguments here as there's no point debating anyone that doesn't argue in good faith, but I wanted to mention something I've found odd for a while - the SNP being a centrist party somehow being an argument against independence.

The UK as a whole is currently a centre-right to mid-right country in terms of central government, media coverage, and public opinion (not surprising given the three are more closely related than ever before).

In Scotland, central government is centrist on most everything except mid-left environmental policy, public opinion is socially centre-left and financially all over the place depending on demographic (particular age group demographics).  Scottish owned and run media tends toward centrre-left to mid-left.

There's absolutely no reason to believe that the most right-wing government (or coalition) an independent Scotland would see in the near to mid future would be a centre-left party, once the independence question itself was removed from the equation.

I strongly suspect an actual Scottish Labour party will emerge in an independent Scotland from the remnants of the left wing of the SNP, more mainstream Greens, etc., and will likely end up in government within the first couple of elections, and I suspect the SNP in its current form will simply cease to exist having served its fundamental purpose.

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6 minutes ago, Lorielus said:

- the SNP being a centrist party somehow being an argument against independence.

Not everybody who votes SNP wants an independent country. This is a mistake made by many in 2014. Many support the SNP because they feel they will stand up for Scotland's interests at Westminster where the welfare of the people of Scotland is a long way from the thinking of the Eton educated elite.

I think the frustration is why do so many previously Labour supporting, and presumablly left of centre Scottish voters, now vote for such an un-socialist party as the SNP? 

Perhaps the Scottish voters were not so socialist as it first appeared. Perhaps support for Labour was previously based on a perception that Labour were not representative of the Eton educated elite. A percception blown right out of the water by Tonee Blair with his Nu Labour ideology which clearly targeted the same Home Counties middle class as the Tories had been aiming at for years. 

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1 hour ago, Zorro said:

Just shows how detached from reality you are that you think all retirees are sitting on million pound inheritances. The idea that younger generations pick up the cheque for those that go before them is not a new or radical idea. It’s the bedrock social services, pensions and the NHS have been funded on from their inception. Did you think all your contributions went in a special pot marked for your use only?

Unfortunately demographics are making this unsustainable, but I feel I owe you an apology. I’ve complained in the past about you following the party line at all costs, but given the the SNP along with Labour, the Lib Dems,the Greens and fair minded Tories find this policy grossly unfair on working people, your support of the Tory Government and Johnson in particular, is commendable. It’s great to know that you support the pandering to the core Tory silver vote and the massive preferential treatment that the Brexit/Tory voting elderly (as a whole) have received at the expense the working poor. What a life they would have in your world. Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. 

Edited by Mclean07
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39 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

Not everybody who votes SNP wants an independent country. This is a mistake made by many in 2014. Many support the SNP because they feel they will stand up for Scotland's interests at Westminster where the welfare of the people of Scotland is a long way from the thinking of the Eton educated elite.

I think the frustration is why do so many previously Labour supporting, and presumablly left of centre Scottish voters, now vote for such an un-socialist party as the SNP? 

Perhaps the Scottish voters were not so socialist as it first appeared. Perhaps support for Labour was previously based on a perception that Labour were not representative of the Eton educated elite. A percception blown right out of the water by Tonee Blair with his Nu Labour ideology which clearly targeted the same Home Counties middle class as the Tories had been aiming at for years. 

Yep, and many are happy virtue signalling voting SNP and collecting the freebies, but draw the line at accepting responsibility, 

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54 minutes ago, Lorielus said:

I'm not going to bother addressing specific arguments here as there's no point debating anyone that doesn't argue in good faith, but I wanted to mention something I've found odd for a while - the SNP being a centrist party somehow being an argument against independence.

The UK as a whole is currently a centre-right to mid-right country in terms of central government, media coverage, and public opinion (not surprising given the three are more closely related than ever before).

In Scotland, central government is centrist on most everything except mid-left environmental policy, public opinion is socially centre-left and financially all over the place depending on demographic (particular age group demographics).  Scottish owned and run media tends toward centrre-left to mid-left.

There's absolutely no reason to believe that the most right-wing government (or coalition) an independent Scotland would see in the near to mid future would be a centre-left party, once the independence question itself was removed from the equation.

I strongly suspect an actual Scottish Labour party will emerge in an independent Scotland from the remnants of the left wing of the SNP, more mainstream Greens, etc., and will likely end up in government within the first couple of elections, and I suspect the SNP in its current form will simply cease to exist having served its fundamental purpose.

I have no objections to a centrist government, just one that pretends to be leftist, when most analysts think it’s nearest comparison is New Labour. 

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