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Hard Brexit it is


Squirrelhumper

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4 hours ago, Scooter said:

Nicola's hand has only been strengthed by today's speechifying.

Clarity was a little thin on the ground but what did we learn? It was certainly 'we're a global country but we don't want you to come here' type language.

"We're leaving the EU but we're not leaving Europe", ...Would they shift the tectonic plates and move us into the middle of the Atlantic if they could? An offshore tax haven looks to be a possibility.

Personally , I'm still waiting for the announcement of £350m for the NHS, but hey ho.

May is a bit of an empty vessel, making fatuous comments like "Brexit means Brexit", leaving breathing space before having to admit she's pretending that it's 'our choice' to leave the single market, when in fact it's the 27 other states of the EU who will be setting the agenda. It is They who will decide the terms of trade with the UK, and we're supposed to be 'taking back control'.

I certainly think May has laid down the gauntlet to Nicola today and she's ready to snap it up.

 

Do t think so. She's in a horrible place.

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5 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

Unionists can, will and indeed only this morning start quoting about the single market of the UK, and comments like removing Scotland from its biggest trading partner, etc.   Project fear mk II has already has its battle cry, this time however they cannot use uncertainty as an argument as they are brining an economic cluster-f**k upon us all.

The Tories and their lunatic fringe (UKIP) want a right wing extreme capitalist, low tax, low workers rights economy.  Labour are a busted flush, vote with their blue tory mates and fail to protect anyone but the rich.  The Liberal democrats are a nonentity with no influence whatsoever, and who would trust them after their duplicity with the Tories in the last government.

Indy ref II is the only sensible option to avoid a society where greed is good and self matters above all else.

There will certainly be no room for greed. We'll be too busy trying to cope with the deficit and the EU austerity measures demanding cuts in benefits and pensions. 

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43 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

There will certainly be no room for greed. We'll be too busy trying to cope with the deficit and the EU austerity measures demanding cuts in benefits and pensions. 

You keep quoting the defecit, you know the ome which is actually impossible to have due to the Scotland act and scotland not having any borrowing powers!

I also see the project fear lies on pensions coming back as well.

You really must think up some new lies to scare people with mclean, the old ones have worn thin now.

Run along and kiss may's s**ter now, theres a good unionist. 

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5 hours ago, RAG said:

I dont think the undecided are predominantly confident types - Scots seem to back no change rather than change in referenda.

Demographics suggest (like in 1979) waiting at least 10 years may be required to get critical mass.

A second loss wouldn't kill independence, but I'd prefer to wait being in my 30s myself.

Tend to agree, and I really can't see a referendum happening before the UK leaves the EU. I think we're going to have to suck up to Brexit for a while before making another big decision.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Leave campaign 2016: "Britain has lost its sovereignty to the EU. We need to take back control and bring back our sovereignty"

Government white paper 2017: "Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, despite people not always feeling like that”

Really??

This is not going to go well.

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13 minutes ago, Scooter said:

Government white paper 2017: "(In England, Wales and N.I) Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, despite people not always feeling like that”

Really??

This is not going to go well.

I corrected that there for you.

In Scotland, the people are sovereign - rather than parliament itself.

Is an essential difference (and incompatibility) between Scots and English law.

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9 hours ago, RAG said:

I corrected that there for you.

In Scotland, the people are sovereign - rather than parliament itself.

Is an essential difference (and incompatibility) between Scots and English law.

Spot on Russell, too many people fail to realise the massive difference between the two.  Scots law is still overriding in scotland and it is enshrined in the act of union.

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On ‎17‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 9:45 PM, Mclean07 said:

Do t think so. She's in a horrible place.

I think "difficult" is the right word here. There is scope to f**k up badly but there are also opportunities to exploit.

At present May is forced to smile for Trump, that doesn't make the UK look like the world power the Brexiteers are trying to sell. If May's balloon really starts to deflate, being in an independent Scotland in the EU could become an attractive option for many.

There is still a lot of groundless optimism from the Brexiteers. As that evapourates Wee Nicola may get presented with opportunities.

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4 hours ago, gdevoy said:

I think "difficult" is the right word here. There is scope to f**k up badly but there are also opportunities to exploit.

At present May is forced to smile for Trump, that doesn't make the UK look like the world power the Brexiteers are trying to sell. If May's balloon really starts to deflate, being in an independent Scotland in the EU could become an attractive option for many.

There is still a lot of groundless optimism from the Brexiteers. As that evapourates Wee Nicola may get presented with opportunities.

An independent Scotland was an attractive option for at least 45% BEFORE Brexit happened, 55-45 is wafer thin majority in a 2 way fight.

Would whats happened post Brexit affect 1 in 20 voters intentions compared to 2014?

Then the YES side would get at least a draw.

I think it'd be more than 1 in 20, I'll stick my neck out and say 1 in 5 voters would change their intentions because of a Hard Brexit.

EU membership formed a big chuck of the Indy debate and the EU uncertainty of and independent Scotland did put people off in 2014.

The "groundless optimism" of the UKIP Brexit lot AND the YES campaign is a huge problem for the "old" establishment of Labour, Lib Dems and the remain Tories.

In both referendums, the status quo side were relentlessly negative against a more positive vision.

Having a relentlessly negative outlook in life, will generally hand opportunities to other people with a more positive outlook - isnae just in politics.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 04/02/2017 at 1:12 AM, RAG said:

I corrected that there for you.

In Scotland, the people are sovereign - rather than parliament itself.

Is an essential difference (and incompatibility) between Scots and English law.

Not looking to argue but how does this tie with ruling against the Indy Camp protesters at Holyrood recently. 

I am genuinely asking as it seemed that they claimed sovereignty but the judge disagreed.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I see Wee Nicola is now starting to float the idea that Westminster will use Brexit to emasculate the Scottish Parliament.

I think I can see where she is going with this but she is going to need a bit more than a suggestion o intent to win over the hearts and minds of the undecided.

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On ‎18‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 11:28 AM, Sandman396 said:

Not looking to argue but how does this tie with ruling against the Indy Camp protesters at Holyrood recently. 

I am genuinely asking as it seemed that they claimed sovereignty but the judge disagreed.

In reality the sovereignty of the people over parliament is somewhat difficult to quantify, and in effect a kind of ethereal thing.  In other words the parliament is beholden to the wishes of the people, but this is slightly different in England where the sovereignty of parliament is in statute and the people are beholden to the parliament.

Difficult one to really get the mind around.

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4 hours ago, gdevoy said:

I see Wee Nicola is now starting to float the idea that Westminster will use Brexit to emasculate the Scottish Parliament.

I think I can see where she is going with this but she is going to need a bit more than a suggestion o intent to win over the hearts and minds of the undecided.

I agree - however doesn't make the proposition any less real.  Going on past behaviour it is to my mind a very very real threat.  The UK parliaments undue haste to challenge the sewel convention, the high court indicates a trait which clearly indicates their intentions.  Ruthie, Fluffy and others have also come out in public stating it is folly to devolve things such as fishing, agriculture, etc. to Scotland both of which are currently devolved also gives further credence to the level of support Holyrood could expect.

In addition poor we Kez was suggesting devolution of thiings already devolved and additional items which have no impact on the leverage of our economy, NHS, etc. whatsoever.

We need to face facts Unionists do NOT care about what is controlled locally - they have no ability to understand the desire to have control overs ones future, and they will ALWAYS go running to London for their comfort.

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42 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

In reality the sovereignty of the people over parliament is somewhat difficult to quantify, and in effect a kind of ethereal thing.  In other words the parliament is beholden to the wishes of the people, but this is slightly different in England where the sovereignty of parliament is in statute and the people are beholden to the parliament.

Difficult one to really get the mind around.

There was clearly some smart nationalist guys writing those laws!

Seems likely to me, with the hundreds of years of history of war between Scotland and (the bigger) England, the Scots have gone out their way to make their laws totally incompatible with Englands.

Otherwise in the last 300 years, they'd have got rid of 2 law systems in the UK - which is a big anomaly when you think about it.

It's been made like that to make it more difficult to assimilate us into the future British state - like the Irish / Welsh were.

Also makes it effectively impossible to extinguish the concept of Scotland, despite it not tangibly existing post 1707.

There were smart guys in Scotland back in the day as I said.

I daresay, if or when Scotland does declare independence, we may find there's a lot more mad old rules in Scots law, heavily loaded in "Scotlands" favour by design NOT accident.

 

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2 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

I agree - however doesn't make the proposition any less real. 

I just read today's exchanges between Angus Robertson David Mundel / Theresa May with him trying to extract assurances on what will happen to the powers currently held by Brussels  in relation to agriculture and fisheries.

Sounded like one of those "We'll provide every assistance, short of actual help" type of reassurances.

May does a lot of smiling for somebody in such an impossible position.

Q) Theresa, will we still be part of the single market ?

A) Our position is that we want to maintain as close trading links with our European neighbours as possible (means no).

Q) Theresa, will people still be able to travel between the north and south of Ireland with the same ease as the do at present ?

A) Our position is that we want to maintain as closely as possible the border regulations we have at present (means no).

Q) David, will all decisions currently taken in Brussels, relating to agriculture and fisheries, be taken by the Scottish government and the Scottish Parliament after Brexit.?

A) This government's plan is to engage with the Scottish government and with the other devolved administrations to discuss theses very serious issues. (means no).

Q) Theresa, why after campaigning so vigorously to keep the UK within the EU do you now think leaving is a good idea?

A) Do you seriously want that Buffon Boris in charge?

 

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2 hours ago, gdevoy said:

May does a lot of smiling for somebody in such an impossible position.

She smiles just like anyone put in the "impossible position" of wearing £295 gutties and a pair of skid mark proof trousers that cost a grand!

Hard Brexit will be squeaky bum time, absolutely requiring a pair of brown leather breeks at the negotiating table - so fair play to the PM on this front.

Austerity is yesterdays news.

The thousand year Tory Reich has only just begun!

 

3AD2A8D600000578-3978498-Mrs_May_has_bee

Edited by RAG
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3 hours ago, gdevoy said:

It certainly has if Scotland becomes independent.

It probably began with Thatcher, next act Blair and Brown (her greatest achievement changing the Labour party) then austerity, now this Brexit Leather Trouser Rolling Stone groupie pish.

Scotlands only 8% of Island Britains population,  the notion we can save the vast majority "from themselves" is to me nonsense.

Let them have their UKIPs and Tories and Jeremy Corbyns in his 1990s shell suit.

Edited by RAG
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I agree this all began with Thatcher. In 1979 the post war rebuilding was over and the post war rebuilding coalition with Labour and the Tories swapping power was not going to work long term.

Along came Thatcher and said "I have a vision" I will lead you out of the wilderness. Follow me, there is no other way.

The people of Britain said GTF, there was a lot of rioting in Brixton and Toxteth and smaller riots elsewhere. Then Thatcher lucked out big time, sometimes I really think God doesn't know what he's doing. She cut the defence budget and the Antarctic patrol ship HMS Endurance and the Argies thought here we go and before you can say Port Stanley we were all singing Land of Hope and Glory. Then she scored another double tops in the form of a man called Scargill who was determined to drag everyone back to the dark ages and before you know it Thatcher was God. Enough people were making loadsamoney so the unemployed and poverty stricken could be largely ignored.

Then along came Blair saying, forget about people centred policies, get rid of the word socialism from our logo the only way to get rid of this Thatcherite philosophy is to be like her. Eh? But people bought it. Now nobody has a clue what Labour stands for and Corbyn is doing his best to do a Scargill.

So I agree let them have their UKIPs and Tories and Jeremy Corbyns in his 1990s shell suit. Lets do our own thing and leave them in a pool of their own mess. 

 

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Brexit has become nothing more than a point scoring exercise in political Scotland.

The reality is that most people don't really care that much, a fact that was reflected in the turn out at the ballot box.
A third of Scots didn't vote and Glasgow, the biggest city in Scotland had turnout of just over 50%.

Sadly our country and its people are now being defined by what side of the independence debate they sit and no matter who might 'win' the next indyref vote it will certainly not be decisive.  

All that can be certain for our future is division.
 

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