Well, shes done it now.

[Mclean07]

Listening to a phone in. An SNP supporter has just said England rules us and we have no democracy. We live in a country with free elections and we voted freely on independence two years ago. ( he obviously struggles with the democratic outcome )We are about to have another free vote. What an insult to the people all over the world who have no access at all to democracy and shed blood to try and achieve it.  Honestly, it would make you cry, the needy, grievance making human beings we have created. We would have no chance of becoming a successful nation relying on these inadequates to create anything positive.

[skygod]

When I lived in Scotland, we regularly had UK governments which, had statistics been analysed as much then as they are now, did not represent the vote in Scotland. 

I think we just accepted that the UK  was a single country with regional variations. 

There has been a huge rise in nationalism since then which sees Scotland more as a separate nation which should not be bound by the contrary outcome of national elections and referenda. 

If you are not going to accept the legitimate outcome of democracy - "We didn't vote for a Tory government/ to Leave the EU" - it really would be better that you left the union. 

I expect if the boot was on the other foot, English people would resent having a government for which the majority didn't vote. 

Maybe the union's time has passed. You have to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages.

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by skygod

[RAG]

1 hour ago, Bhamkillieken said:

. You dissect a comment about the economy but have to go as far as finding GDP for east Ayrshire to support your case. 

Well it's made you less ignorant about the low GDP of East Ayrshire!

Not that it really matters the poverty in Killie - when you live in Birmingham.

Whats the GDP there btw?

More or less than $20,000?!

[Mclean07]

21 minutes ago, skygod said:

When I lived in Scotland, we regularly had UK governments which, had statistics been analysed as much then as they are now, did not represent the vote in Scotland. 

I think we just accepted that the UK  was a single country with regional variations. 

There has been a huge rise in nationalism since then which sees Scotland more as a separate nation which should not be bound by the contrary outcome of national elections and referenda. 

If you are not going to accept the legitimate outcome of democracy - "We didn't vote for a Tory government/ to Leave the EU" - it really would be better that you left the union. 

I expect if the boot was on the other foot, English people would resent having a government for which the majority didn't vote. 

Maybe the union's time has passed. You have to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages.

 

Yes, skygod, and we're free to vote for that if we want to. We voted to stay in the UK, and until we do otherwise, nobody is denying Scotland's wishes. They are simply casting their vote in a UK election. 

[Mclean07]

19 minutes ago, RAG said:

Well it's made you less ignorant about the low GDP of East Ayrshire!

Not that it really matters the poverty in Killie - when you live in Birmingham.

Whats the GDP there btw?

More or less than $20,000?!

Great SNP comments there. Firstly patronising in the usual know all manner. Also assuming everyone is like them and only cares about people in one geographical area. Also, creating diversions with a bizarre geeky argument and avoiding the fact that we would be put on a severe austerity programme by the EU as soon as we were an independent member.

[Mclean07]

Latest call on the phone in. ' it's a choice between. Tory Britain under May or a SOCIALIST Scotland under Sturgeon. " hahahahahahahabhahahaha. This is hilarious.

[RAG]

Just now, Mclean07 said:

Firstly patronising in the usual know all manner.

Cheers sweetie.

It's been a great personal honour to bring to your attention, the exceptionally low GDP of East Ayrshire.

However, I would not expect this use of actual facts and figures, to change your arch unionist / zoomer viewpoint.

[historyman]

2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Listening to a phone in. An SNP supporter has just said England rules us and we have no democracy. We live in a country with free elections and we voted freely on independence two years ago. ( he obviously struggles with the democratic outcome )We are about to have another free vote. What an insult to the people all over the world who have no access at all to democracy and shed blood to try and achieve it.  Honestly, it would make you cry, the needy, grievance making human beings we have created. We would have no chance of becoming a successful nation relying on these inadequates to create anything positive.

Agreed. There are idiots on all sides. I would suggest you will find these needy, grievance making human beings all over the United Kingdom, not only in the nation of Scotland. Some of the interviews at the time of the EU referendum were shockingly bad.

However, having read many of your posts it does seem that you are selective in what you comment on. Would you say that you are equally ready to highlight ridiculous comments made by someone who doesn't favour a referendum or independence?

For me, the ridiculous statement being made at the moment by many political figures is that the Scottish people don't want another referendum. I really don't know how such a statement can be made given the success of the SNP at the general election and Holyrood elections. While not all those who voted SNP may favour a referendum on independence, given that is a defining characteristic of the party I would have thought the more natural conclusion to draw for these recent electoral results was precisely that the Scottish people DO indeed want a referendum.

[Beaker71]

3 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Listening to a phone in. An SNP supporter has just said England rules us and we have no democracy. We live in a country with free elections and we voted freely on independence two years ago. ( he obviously struggles with the democratic outcome )We are about to have another free vote. What an insult to the people all over the world who have no access at all to democracy and shed blood to try and achieve it.  Honestly, it would make you cry, the needy, grievance making human beings we have created. We would have no chance of becoming a successful nation relying on these inadequates to create anything positive.

You do know that Westminster controls 75% of the whole of Scotlands economic levers, 100% of its defence, 100% of its foreign relations and that we have 59 out of 600 odd MP's and as such can and indeed have been totally out coted on EVERY single occasion this parliament and the last.  While I would refute his democracy situation, you cannot argue that there is not a significant democratic deficit within the current constitutional arrangement.  Where representatives of one nation within a nation state of 4 entities can simply ride roughshod over the wishes of the other three and impose their preferences with impunity.

 

Also love how your new persona is working out - seems very similar to your olds one - where you take one eejit and tar everyone with the same bruch, and pic snippets and apply them without context to a large swathe of the population.

[Killie71]

It never gets mentioned that, after the No vote, Scotland returned 50+ MP's to Westminster at the general election? Not exactly consistent with the 'decisive' No vote....

[Beaker71]

1 minute ago, Killie71 said:

It never gets mentioned that, after the No vote, Scotland returned 50+ MP's to Westminster at the general election? Not exactly consistent with the 'decisive' No vote....

And despite the vagries of the devolution settlement the SNP only missed out on an outright majority because they did so well in both votes, but failed to tackle a few key seats, or a majority would have ensued once again, under a system which was deliberately designed to hamstring its decision making ability unless there was a unionist coalition - remember jack McConnell handing money back as they couldn't think of anything to spend it on, while they set up ridiculous PFI arrangements all over the country, and didn't even think of dualling the A9, or finishing the M74 extensions or Raith interchange issues.

Unionists and the media keep having a go at the SNP but they conveniently forget the 100 years of underinvestment in our infrastructure prior to their election wins.  More investment in infrastructure in the country in the past 10 years than in the previous 40.  Investments like this take time to bring results, but the new forth crossing and the western peripheral bypass in Aberdeen will make a huge difference to peoples journeys every day.  Again we won't hear about that in the press.

[Beaker71]

Whatever you may think about Nicola Sturgeon, only the staunches union flag waving unionist would have failed to note the massive difference in humility and presence between Thersa May and Nicola yesterday.

One took time to make a measured speech which set out a clear direction for a country to let its people decide and the other made a condescending searingly arrogant retort to said speech almost like a headmistress trying to admonish a child.

One spoke clearly, albeit with a predisposition for her desire to see Scotland as an independent nation, and one basically spouted complete lies in attempting to hide her intransigence to compromise and agreement to anything other than her way or nothing.

Those on the unionist side keep going on about the SNP not listening, I wonder if they are as equally critical and scathing of the PM and her government who have ignored all the wishes, offers and discussions of ALL of the devolved administrations.  May has made her style of governing very clear - very much like we are the empire and you will do as you are told.  A style which will not go down well in Scotland or anywhere else outside of the home counties I suspect.  Time will tell.

[RAG]

4 minutes ago, Killie71 said:

It never gets mentioned that, after the No vote, Scotland returned 50+ MP's to Westminster at the general election? 

It's not pointed out because "back in the day" that was enough for independence.

None of this referendum lark, get a Scots majority of SNP MP's in Scotland and thats the job done.

It was how the Irish did it, got a majority, (much less than the current SNP's) then just walked out.

The SNP could still walk from Westminster if this referendum is refused - long way off from that yet though.

[Sp3ckyh0td0g81]

I dont generally post on the political forum but saw this, is it just me or is this a bit contradictory ? Ruth Davidson slagging off Nicola Sturgeon for her twitter usage ....by posting on twitter,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/14/someones-gone-full-donald-trump-nicola-sturgeon-ruth-davidson/

 

[bute-killiefan]

2 minutes ago, Sp3ckyh0td0g81 said:

I dont generally post on the political forum but saw this, is it just me or is this a bit contradictory ? Ruth Davidson slagging off Nicola Sturgeon for her twitter usage ....by posting on twitter,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/14/someones-gone-full-donald-trump-nicola-sturgeon-ruth-davidson/

 

I felt this thread needed a gif to lighten the mood......

[Sp3ckyh0td0g81]

5 minutes ago, bute-killiefan said:

I felt this thread needed a gif to lighten the mood......

 

[Mclean07]

1 hour ago, Beaker71 said:

You do know that Westminster controls 75% of the whole of Scotlands economic levers, 100% of its defence, 100% of its foreign relations and that we have 59 out of 600 odd MP's and as such can and indeed have been totally out coted on EVERY single occasion this parliament and the last.  While I would refute his democracy situation, you cannot argue that there is not a significant democratic deficit within the current constitutional arrangement.  Where representatives of one nation within a nation state of 4 entities can simply ride roughshod over the wishes of the other three and impose their preferences with impunity.

 

Also love how your new persona is working out - seems very similar to your olds one - where you take one eejit and tar everyone with the same bruch, and pic snippets and apply them without context to a large swathe of the population.

We voted two years ago to keep the current situation. Until we choose otherwise, we vote and act as one unit. Nobody is oppressing us. It's our choice. Unfotunately the needy thinking was prevelant in virtually every Yes caller. All about what " they're " doing to " us ". The " us " is particularly annoying as a lot of " us " don't want to included in the victim hood culture that has been created.

[Mclean07]

2 hours ago, historyman said:

Agreed. There are idiots on all sides. I would suggest you will find these needy, grievance making human beings all over the United Kingdom, not only in the nation of Scotland. Some of the interviews at the time of the EU referendum were shockingly bad.

However, having read many of your posts it does seem that you are selective in what you comment on. Would you say that you are equally ready to highlight ridiculous comments made by someone who doesn't favour a referendum or independence?

For me, the ridiculous statement being made at the moment by many political figures is that the Scottish people don't want another referendum. I really don't know how such a statement can be made given the success of the SNP at the general election and Holyrood elections. While not all those who voted SNP may favour a referendum on independence, given that is a defining characteristic of the party I would have thought the more natural conclusion to draw for these recent electoral results was precisely that the Scottish people DO indeed want a referendum.

Polls can be wrong of course, but uniformly they say a large majority of the electorate dog want another referendum at present. 

[Mclean07]

1 hour ago, Killie71 said:

It never gets mentioned that, after the No vote, Scotland returned 50+ MP's to Westminster at the general election? Not exactly consistent with the 'decisive' No vote....

Irrelevant. They lost the vote that counted. General Elections cover a plethora of issues.

[Mclean07]

1 hour ago, Beaker71 said:

Whatever you may think about Nicola Sturgeon, only the staunches union flag waving unionist would have failed to note the massive difference in humility and presence between Thersa May and Nicola yesterday.

One took time to make a measured speech which set out a clear direction for a country to let its people decide and the other made a condescending searingly arrogant retort to said speech almost like a headmistress trying to admonish a child.

One spoke clearly, albeit with a predisposition for her desire to see Scotland as an independent nation, and one basically spouted complete lies in attempting to hide her intransigence to compromise and agreement to anything other than her way or nothing.

Those on the unionist side keep going on about the SNP not listening, I wonder if they are as equally critical and scathing of the PM and her government who have ignored all the wishes, offers and discussions of ALL of the devolved administrations.  May has made her style of governing very clear - very much like we are the empire and you will do as you are told.  A style which will not go down well in Scotland or anywhere else outside of the home counties I suspect.  Time will tell.

Yep, I thought she did the humble act well. She's stuck between a rock and a hard place. She knows she probably can't win, but she's boxed herself into a corner with the the zealots demanding action. Hopefully the start of a process that ends in implosion after she loses. She has a lot to be humble about, mind you, with the education system whizzing down the international league tables after ten years of a couldn't care less attitude and appalling planning, with valuable resources she has available directed at Comfortable Scotland rather than the least well off. And they want us to give them more power to screw things up.

[historyman]

2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Polls can be wrong of course, but uniformly they say a large majority of the electorate dog want another referendum at present. 

Oh come on, I expected a better answer from you than that.

Firstly, I think that nearly every recent major political event - UK general election, EU referendum, US election has shown just how wrong polls can be. 

Secondly, I was making the point that the SNP returned almost every Scottish MP to Westminster and damned near got another majority in a parliament specifically designed to prevent such an event. Don't you think this is a far better indication of the views of the people than a poll (and don't get me started on the ridiculous Sunday Post headline which was mental even by their standards)? If the people of Scotland did not agree with the policies of the SNP then they have had two opportunities since the referendum to show their disagreement at the ballot box. 

 

[historyman]

2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Yep, I thought she did the humble act well. She's stuck between a rock and a hard place. She knows she probably can't win, but she's boxed herself into a corner with the the zealots demanding action. Hopefully the start of a process that ends in implosion after she loses. She has a lot to be humble about, mind you, with the education system whizzing down the international league tables after ten years of a couldn't care less attitude and appalling planning, with valuable resources she has available directed at Comfortable Scotland rather than the least well off. And they want us to give them more power to screw things up.

2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

I asked this question of someone else on this thread and I'd be interested in your views as well because it seems that everything is not wonderful in the rest of the UK with regard to education, health service, prison, public services etc. The question is:

Do you believe that the last two governments (coalition and current conservative) have made a good job of running the country? Do you believe that Britain is a better place to live in and bring up your family because of the policies that they have implemented and the direction they have taken the country in?

[Mcilroy56]

6 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Great SNP comments there. Firstly patronising in the usual know all manner. Also assuming everyone is like them and only cares about people in one geographical area. Also, creating diversions with a bizarre geeky argument and avoiding the fact that we would be put on a severe austerity programme by the EU as soon as we were an independent member.

To be fair, on reflection you fall into these categories yourself on many occasions 

[Beaker71]

2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Polls can be wrong of course, but uniformly they say a large majority of the electorate dog want another referendum at present. 

Eh no they don't three in a row showing neck and neck old boy

2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

We voted two years ago to keep the current situation. Until we choose otherwise, we vote and act as one unit. Nobody is oppressing us. It's our choice. Unfotunately the needy thinking was prevelant in virtually every Yes caller. All about what " they're " doing to " us ". The " us " is particularly annoying as a lot of " us " don't want to included in the victim hood culture that has been created.

I see that new persona of listening to debate is working out well.  as you clearly haven't drifted or even jumped with both feet back into old Mclean and his name calling and painting the Union as perfect sweetness and light and those advocating Independence form said union as needy grievance bearing antichrists in anyway.

[gdevoy]

2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Polls can be wrong of course, but uniformly they say a large majority of the electorate don't want another referendum at present. 

As I understand it, it's around 50:50. Maybe between 45  to 50, less than a majority anyway, want the referendum.

I am really toiling to get my head around how this gets transformed to a "large majority" of Scots don't want a referendum. OK, you could justifiably say that some polls show a majority don't want a referendum but even although the word "large" can be rather subjective I think Mundel et all are straying into the land of Trumpian alternative facts with the adjective large.

A majority of people in Scotland voted for a party dedicated to getting us out of the UK, they have a majority in the Scottish parliament and apart from no more than a handful have all the MPs at Westminster. Wake up and smell the coffee, there is substantial support for breaking up the UK and just rubbishing the peoples representatives is only going to make that support grow.