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skygod

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There may have been Labour people who voted for them. I personally don't know any. If the did I would condem it. Don't make the usual assumptions ( i.e every SNP voter is a remainer ) that your party often does. Some SNP voters may have retuned to their natural home on the Right as well.

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1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Seem like a lovely lot. Can't believe Labour voters voted for them.

Like you I am appalled that Scottish voters concerned about the constitutional issues raised by the SNP would vote for:

A party that penalises children because of the behaviour of their "parents" and whose policies have done so much to hinder social mobility over the last seven years.

A party that has damaged this country's long term economic prospects and the peace in Ireland by allowing a vote on EU membership to gain power at the last election. Heaven forfend they perceive they could get elected by promising a vote on capital punishment.

A party with no interest whatever in investing in this part of the UK, all they want is to maintain sovereignty.   

Rather than any of the other many unionist parties available. It's not as if a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence, all they want is a referendum. If people don't want independence they can vote against it.

Also I think the increase in the Tory vote has been seriously hyped up by the BBC.

I'm not persuaded about independence as things stand but I am fairly clear about where the Tories are going.  

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9 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

Latest poll has support for Indy ref 2 down to 27%.

Polls can go up as well as down. I'm thinking once the implications of Scotland being part of an "independent" UK in a very competitive world it is little equipped to deal with that support may change. 

Are we going into competition with India where university graduates are willing to work for, comparatively, what supermarket checkout assistants get here?

Are we willing to strike a trade deal with India, where they insist on 2 way free movement?

Who wants to compete economically with the USA where they get 10 days paid holiday a year?

Who thinks we can get a trade deal with the USA where they wont screw us into the ground?

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28 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

There may have been Labour people who voted for them. I personally don't know any. If the did I would condem it. Don't make the usual assumptions ( i.e every SNP voter is a remainer ) that your party often does. Some SNP voters may have retuned to their natural home on the Right as well.

SNP got 105,000 more votes than in 2012

Also an increase of 20% in first preference votes from 2012

#SNPpeak

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32 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

Latest poll has support for Indy ref 2 down to 27%.

in your head maybe - no please give us an answer to why PFI was a good idea, and wasn't in anyway a complete con to try and show Labour were good at sums, while they handed millions back to the UK as they couldn't think of anything at all to spend it on.  And while you are at that give us a good reason for the union which doesn't involve painting Scotland as some sort of economically illiterate third world country with no social care system whatsoever.  However I won't hold my breath as you haven't answered this question any of the other dozen times you've been asked it, and why?  Simply because there isn't one, your entire argument is based on - the Union is good because Scotland is s**te...... at everything.  We both, in fact everyone on this forum knows that that argument is complete and utter bollox.

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2 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

in your head maybe - no please give us an answer to why PFI was a good idea, and wasn't in anyway a complete con to try and show Labour were good at sums, while they handed millions back to the UK as they couldn't think of anything at all to spend it on.  And while you are at that give us a good reason for the union which doesn't involve painting Scotland as some sort of economically illiterate third world country with no social care system whatsoever.  However I won't hold my breath as you haven't answered this question any of the other dozen times you've been asked it, and why?  Simply because there isn't one, your entire argument is based on - the Union is good because Scotland is s**te...... at everything.  We both, in fact everyone on this forum knows that that argument is complete and utter bollox.

Labour increased living standards year on year, reduced pensioner poverty, reduced child poverty by record levels, until the worldwide financial crisis, started by sub prime lending in Florida, swept the globe. Even then their leader led the way to stop it becoming a depression. The Tories called for less regulation. The Libdems and the SNP wanted higher public spending. None of them foresaw the crisis and were approving of the RBS expansion strategy.

To be fair, the SNP relieved pensioner poverty in Morningside/ Bearsden with the council tax freeze and poverty in Milngavie and Newton Mearns with free prescriptions and cheaper airfares, so they're not all bad.

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Scottish people who are not activists or crazed party fanatics are, like voters across the UK, generally sensible. They know Brexit is complicated enough and an independence referendum in the middle of it is a daft idea. The SNP has also been in power for a decade and has done a poor job on Scottish education, health and the economy. Shouldn’t Sturgeon and her lot get on with that rather than being fixated on securing Indyref2? Yep.

Nicola Sturgeon has also started to really annoy non-Nationalists. You have to visit Scotland to get the full sense of the backlash, after years in which people kept their voices down for fear of social retribution. The initial Sturgeon promise of reaching out has been replaced by increasingly intemperate strutting about and a refusal to even acknowledge, with a dash of humility, that not everything is wonderful in the SNP garden. Sturgeon said any talk of a “backlash” against her is “ludicrous”. She’s gradually going the full Thatcher.

Incidentally, there was an undignified little row the seat numbers, with the chief executive of the SNP (Mrs Sturgeon’s husband) accusing the BBC of undestating the Nat tally. This brought down the full might of the cybernat online nuts on the Beeb. Lost in the row was the reality that the Beeb had simply adjusted for boundary changes in an effort to be fair.

This all runs counter to the Nationalist narrative of destiny and imminent success on the constitution. The events of the last three or so years were supposed to be the prelude to independence becoming inevitable. Right now it just isn’t working out the way they intended, which is hilarious.

Extracts from an interesting article by Iain Martin

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mclean07
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26 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

Extracts from an interesting article by Iain Martin

I can see quite clearly that the zealots / activists on the nationalist side are just pissing the people who don't support them off by calling them unpatriotic. They are doing nothing to further their cause.

However I sense the "surge", if that is what you insist upon calling it, in support for the Tories comes from comes from unionist voters switching from Labour to Conservative rather than any erosion in actual support for the Nationalists. Wee Roofie can mouth off all she wants about putting the Nats in their place but so far she has had absolutely no impact on SNP support.

The truth is that, laudable as Labour's manifesto is they have no credibility as a potential party of government.   

The further truth is that Scotland is split 50:50 on the devise issue of independence and May is going to use that to her advantage which is what politics is all about. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

Meaningless waffle...SNP BAAAD....SNP obsessed with indy ref 2.

Unsubstantiated angry nationalist nonsense....Sturgeon tells the outside world that everything in her party is fine (of course she's going to f**king say that)...Obligatory suggestion that because of this sturgeon is a wee dictator, which is f**king hilarous.

Obligatory "cybernat" reference.  Nationalists (with internet access) are BAAAAD, exposing the BBC for reporting "as fact" figures which they've admitted "were adjusted".

Some more meaningless waffle....Ending in a cheeky wee "the nationalists aren't even gonnae win" type statement.

Extracts from an interesting article by Iain Martin

SNP BAD - Check.

SNP are a dictatorship - Check

Nationalists are angry - Check

Nationalists with internet are even angrier - Check

My favourite part of the article is this:

Quote

Sturgeon said any talk of a “backlash” against her is “ludicrous”. She’s gradually going the full Thatcher.....
It is in that context that last week’s local elections in Scotland should be viewed.‎ The SNP came first, of course it did.

Let me translate...
"There's definately a backlash! Naw, honestly, there is.  I'm telling you, there is.  Just look at the results from last week and you'll see.  Ah...f**k...the SNP won, didn't they"

Full article here if anyone wants a gander:
https://reaction.life/snp-nicola-sturgeon-cant-process-thought-theyve-stalled-slide/

I wouldn't bother though.  It's not nearly as interesting as Mclean pretends it to be. 

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Tories have played a blinder in Scotland since 2014. They were able to get the No result whilst also nullifying support for Labour across the Uk. Now they've managed to unify the Unionist vote in their favour, taking even more support away from Labour.

 

Don't get me wrong, he f**ked up royally on the EU referendum, but Cameron played a blinder with Scotland

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13 minutes ago, bute-killiefan said:

Don't get me wrong, he f**ked up royally on the EU referendum, but Cameron played a blinder with Scotland

Depends if you take Cameron/Tories on face value?  One could argue he played a blinder on the EU referendum. Fooling people by initially claiming the EU ref. would be on the re-negotiated terms. When in reality, it was a straight in/out to placate the 1922 committee and UKIP elements of the traditional Tory power base. There was no chance after Brexit, that the UK would be more left wing. Classic divide and rule.

 

Edited by RAG
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http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/15271615.Orange_Order_elected_to_councils_as_Labour_and_Tory_members/

MEMBERS of the Orange Order have won council seats in the local elections by standing for the Labour and Tory parties, the Sunday Herald can reveal. The Orange Order has boasted that its elected councillors will work to derail a second independence referendum, the organisation’s Scottish leader said.

Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland Grand Master Jim McHarg said the organisation now wanted to stir the Unionist population against independence.

A “huge number” of Lodge supporters are Tories, McHarg said, as he praised Ruth Davidson for basing her council election campaign on opposition to a second referendum.

However, McHarg said most of the Protestant Order’s members are Labour supporters as he revealed the organisation’s attempt to extend its political influence. He said the majority of Orange Lodge members who had successfully been elected as councillors were Labour, but added that at least one Tory had also been voted in.

McHarg said at least six of members had been elected as councillors, with dozens more sympathisers also returned in the local elections.

The Grand Master said the Orange Order now had more elected politicians in Scotland among its membership than at any time in nearly 20 years. He said the organisation had members on councils in North and East Ayrshire, as well as in South and North Lanarkshire.

Members of the Orange Order could now sit on council committees that will make decisions on local education policy, including the funding of Catholic schools.

Labour and the Conservatives may end up running some local authorities after they became the largest party in nine areas, including South Ayrshire and North Lanarkshire.

The Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland’s website describes state sponsored Catholic education as “a thorn in the flesh”. It also criticises legislation which “fully legitimised religious apartheid in Scottish schools by enriching the Catholic Church by paying the full price for its school buildings”.

McHarg refused to reveal the identities of those winning seats, but claimed the victories were a growing sign of pro-Union strength.

He said: “We’re delighted that our members are taking part in community life and I’m personally very proud that they are working for the community in this way. It can do no harm to the Unionist people.”

McHarg said the lodge had yet to find out the exact numbers of its members who had been elected and in which areas they had won. However, he added that Glasgow and the east of Scotland were likely be other places where the lodge had new councillors.

McHarg said: “We are still collating the numbers of members

elected, but we believe six members of the institution have been elected to councils and that various other friends have too.”

He added that there were “probably” dozens of other newly elected councillors who were sympathetic to the Lodge and that this was an increase on those in place after the 2012 local elections.

McHarg confirmed those standing had not explicitly stated in their election literature that they were Lodge members. However, he claimed they had not sought to hide their membership from the public.

He said: “They wouldn’t have hidden it from people. Everybody in

the community would know who they are.”

McHarg said the Orange Order

had intervened in politics to

prevent a second independence

referendum being held. He added that the organisation had shunned politics for decades, but that the rise of the independence movement had led to Orangemen deciding to get involved again.

He said: “A lot of people were fed up with politics. We felt like a lot of people weren’t being listened to.”

McHarg added that the number of lodge members elected as councillors was now at its highest rate “certainly since 2000” just a year after the start of devolution.

McHarg said that he had voted for two Labour candidates and one Tory in the North Ayrshire council area, including one who attends the same church as him, adding that he had yet to decide which Unionist party to back in the General Election.

The Lodge leader also went out of his way to praise Ruth Davidson for her role in the campaign against independence, saying: “It’s probably helpful that the Tory Party has gone down that line. Ruth Davidson comes across well.”

Speaking about the political leanings of Lodge members, McHarg added: “Our members are very diverse. There are a huge number of Tories, but the majority are Labour.”

He said the lodge would now be suggesting that its members back

Unionist parties in the General Election on June 8. “We’ll never tell

people how to vote, but I’d guide people to support Unionist candidates,” he added.

McHarg also said the Lodge could stage another mass parade against independence like that held in Edinburgh days before the referendum on September 18 in 2014.

He said: “At the moment we’ve no desire to, but if we think there’s a need to stir the Unionist people we’d consider it.” McHarg said the Lodge may even consider encouraging Orangemen to seek election to Holyrood.

 

However, the Lodge’s intervention sparked concerns from SNP and Green members. Scottish Green leader Patrick Harvie said: “Most people will view the Orange Lodge as an unpleasant organisation with a sectarian past. Any party that knowingly selected members of it would have some very difficult questions to answer.”

Scottish Greens’ local government spokesperson Andy Wightman added: “Residents will be very disappointed with councillors who feel that issues that have nothing to do with local politics are deemed important in local elections.”

An SNP source said: “The Orange Order has made claims before and any claim now that it has significant influence is certainly overestimated.”

In response to McHarg, a Scottish Labour spokesperson said: “Every Labour councillor elected will fight for their local communities, not a

divisive second independence referendum the people of Scotland don’t want.”

The Tories declined to comment

on McHarg’s claims that it had at least one councillor who is a Lodge member.

Meanwhile, the Electoral Commission, the independent body which oversees elections in the UK, confirmed it would have no locus over the Lodge’s activities in the event of any complaints being made.

 

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22 minutes ago, bute-killiefan said:

Tories have played a blinder in Scotland since 2014. They were able to get the No result whilst also nullifying support for Labour across the Uk. Now they've managed to unify the Unionist vote in their favour, taking even more support away from Labour.

In 2016 they used the prospect of the SNP wielding power to get people to vote tory in Engerland.

Now they are using the potential break up of the UK to take more support from Labour in Scotland.

The only people the Tories can't get support from are SNP voters and they don't matter a damn as the SNP will never have any executive power.

Mind you Labour have gone out of their way to help, hopelessly divided between Tory Lite MPs with no clue about what the are about and a bunch of unelectable Marxists. The only real victims her are the poor and under-privileged. Some of these folks have been dazzeled by Tory bulls**t and mythical promises of "reward for hard work" while they go out of their way to facilitate tax havens for the super rich and inherited wealth for the few. 

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2 hours ago, Mclean07 said:

Labour increased living standards year on year, reduced pensioner poverty, reduced child poverty by record levels, until the worldwide financial crisis, started by sub prime lending in Florida, swept the globe. Even then their leader led the way to stop it becoming a depression. The Tories called for less regulation. The Libdems and the SNP wanted higher public spending. None of them foresaw the crisis and were approving of the RBS expansion strategy.

To be fair, the SNP relieved pensioner poverty in Morningside/ Bearsden with the council tax freeze and poverty in Milngavie and Newton Mearns with free prescriptions and cheaper airfares, so they're not all bad.

Sigh - same old tired pish form you - FFS Admit Labour were and are a clusterf**k and we can at least have a sensible debate.  if you keep trying the policies only help the middle class mince you will as usual be ridiculed, then ignored.

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

Scottish people who are not activists or crazed party fanatics (Like you, you mean) are, like voters across the UK, generally sensible.

They know Brexit is complicated enough and an independence referendum in the middle of it is a daft idea

The only people claiming that we should have a referendum in the MIDDLE of this are Unionists, the SNP and Greens have both said it should take place AFTER the terms are known - Please keep up old boy).

The SNP has also been in power for a decade and has done a poor job on Scottish education, health and the economy - Pish Pish and more Pish. how many more times do unionists need to be shown facts that the NHS is performing above the rest of the UK and waaay above where it was ten years ago. Education comments as well are just plain bull. As for the Economy - which one of the economic levers do they suggest the SNP use..... Oh that's right ALL of them are fukn RESERVED.

Shouldn’t Sturgeon and her lot get on with that rather than being fixated on securing Indyref2? Yep. - Oh the old get on with the day job "TORY" jibe.

Nicola Sturgeon has also started to really annoy non-Nationalists. You have to visit Scotland to get the full sense of the backlash, after years in which people kept their voices down for fear of social retribution. The initial Sturgeon promise of reaching out has been replaced by increasingly intemperate strutting about and a refusal to even acknowledge, with a dash of humility, that not everything is wonderful in the SNP garden. Sturgeon said any talk of a “backlash” against her is “ludicrous”. She’s gradually going the full Thatcher.  This is quite ridiculous, The unionist press really are starting to all turn into David Heffer now - They and you need a lie down.

Incidentally, there was an undignified little row the seat numbers, with the chief executive of the SNP (Mrs Sturgeon’s husband) accusing the BBC of undestating the Nat tally. This brought down the full might of the cybernat online nuts on the Beeb. Lost in the row was the reality that the Beeb had simply adjusted for boundary changes in an effort to be fair. - actually no they didn't anyone could read, see and hear they tried to say the SNP had LOST seats, and votes and that the Tories had SURGED up to 23.5% - which incidentally was less than Labour got last time around.  Only Brian Taylor who incidentally is a Liberal democrat poured any sense onto the fire of hypocrisy the BBC were starting.

This all runs counter to the Nationalist narrative of destiny and imminent success on the constitution. The events of the last three or so years were supposed to be the prelude to independence becoming inevitable. Right now it just isn’t working out the way they intended, which is hilarious. - This is delusional unionist propaganda of the type - say it often enough and folks will believe its real. How can having more votes, more seats being seen as a defeat!!!!

Extracts from an interesting article by Iain Martin (clearly has red white and blue glasses on for that article which has more mince in it that a browning scotch pie)

 

 

 

 

OK lets just look at what you have posted above - comments in RED

 

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5 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

OK lets just look at what you have posted above - comments in RED

 

Education is the one that most shows you up to be a cloth eared zealot. Even your own leader and education secretary admit openly to the underperformance. It's just taken as read by every sane person. But unlike me, you can't admit to anything, ever being wrong with your cult. That's the one that proves debating with you is a complete waste of time. Scotland is one quarter from being officially in recession. The only part of the U.K. Everyone is working under the same rules, but we have an Administration that is lazy, complacent, arrogant and lacking in the slightest bit of drive or imagination.That's the difference. Imagine if anyone ever let them run the whole show.

Luckily for the Scottish people, they never will.

 

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13 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

Sigh - same old tired pish form you - FFS Admit Labour were and are a clusterf**k and we can at least have a sensible debate.  if you keep trying the policies only help the middle class mince you will as usual be ridiculed, then ignored.

Or you could be reasoned in your responses/views. All you ever do is slate the question/source/facts or figures used. Now most sensible people would if you push them say that their political party of favour could have done things better when they were and/or in power. But no not you. No the snp are beyond reproach, for anything whatsoever.

 

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