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The Irish border (Brexit)


Gallus

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28 minutes ago, Zorro said:

History has always been written by the victors. 

That is why I am a bit hesitant to accept the UK establishment account of the formation of the Union. I do know it had far from 100% support from the population and probably suited the finances of some big wigs at the time.

However the consequences and implications of the failure of the Darien Scheme must have presented a fairly bleak future to the people of Scotland. I am quite willing to accept it was helped to fail by vested interests south of the border but it sounds like something akin to a current "Nigerian investment opportunity" to me.

Just because you think Brexit or Independence look like a leap into a void that can only end in economic misery for millions it doesn't make you guilty of treason.     

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34 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

That is why I am a bit hesitant to accept the UK establishment account of the formation of the Union. I do know it had far from 100% support from the population and probably suited the finances of some big wigs at the time.

However the consequences and implications of the failure of the Darien Scheme must have presented a fairly bleak future to the people of Scotland. I am quite willing to accept it was helped to fail by vested interests south of the border but it sounds like something akin to a current "Nigerian investment opportunity" to me.

Just because you think Brexit or Independence look like a leap into a void that can only end in economic misery for millions it doesn't make you guilty of treason.     

Darien was on the verge of limited success, however the Spanish blockaded the colony as it saw it as a threat to its own southern American empire.  The English supported the Spanish out of self interest and a deal for the indies being left to them.  They then petitioned the king NOT to send reinforcements or a rescue mission.

Political intrigue at its worst and Treachery by the king of the worst kind.

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3 minutes ago, Fudger said:

You should write a book on your alternate version of every other history book on the subject. Advertise it in the national. 

Just because the truth doesn’t fit with your euthenaised unionist version of events, doesn’t make it any less true.  Just you stick to what your empirical masters tell you to think.

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2 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

Darien was on the verge of limited success, however the Spanish blockaded the colony as it saw it as a threat to its own southern American empire.  The English supported the Spanish out of self interest and a deal for the indies being left to them.  They then petitioned the king NOT to send reinforcements or a rescue mission.

Political intrigue at its worst and Treachery by the king of the worst kind.

Certainly a lot of political back stabbing and less than morally upstanding behaviour. Its always been a dirty game, international politics.

The question that I cant resolve is that if it was such a sound business proposition why did nobody else go for I? Not the fairly powerful Spanish, English, or the French nor the comparable to Scotland in size and population Dutch or the Portuguese? Not one of them thought that for a comparatively modest investment they could make a worthwhile living trading on the American Isthmus. 

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5 hours ago, gdevoy said:

Certainly a lot of political back stabbing and less than morally upstanding behaviour. Its always been a dirty game, international politics.

The question that I cant resolve is that if it was such a sound business proposition why did nobody else go for I? Not the fairly powerful Spanish, English, or the French nor the comparable to Scotland in size and population Dutch or the Portuguese? Not one of them thought that for a comparatively modest investment they could make a worthwhile living trading on the American Isthmus. 

Spanish had Mexico, and most of the rest of South America to plunder.  The English had the West Indies, the French we’re heading east and had Africa.  The Dutch were in Africa too,  Portugal was in South America and some African colonies too.

the Spanish were concerned enough to blockade the colony, so something must’ve been possible.

its all lost to history now and useful only as a lesson on the duplicity of politicians, and for those in love with the ludicrous notion that England and the union saved Scotland from ruin, a lesson in truth which already we have seen them refuse to accept.

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Having a single sovereign from the union of the crowns but separate administrations in Britain seemed to be causing unresolvable political difficulties at the start of the 18th century. I don't know how Darien fitted in with this.

I have only an amateur interest in history but I think it is important that we understand why things happened in order to avoid undesirable outcomes repeating themselves. Environment and circumstances may change but the idea that human beings are somehow more advanced in their decision making now is a total delusion.

I find, "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got", is a very helpful guideline.

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3 hours ago, gdevoy said:

Environment and circumstances may change but the idea that human beings are somehow more advanced in their decision making now is a total delusion.

Are you no a scientist though?!

Surely the knowledge, education, understanding of biology, psychology and science available today leads to more advanced (or informed) decision making?

For example, (although the sandwich was invented in 1762) were I to make you a cheese sandwich 1707 style, I probably wouldn't wash my hands beforehand, the bread would not have been made to modern hygiene standards etc etc.  As a result you might get ill. 

All that is much less likely if I made a cheese sandwich 2018 style - cos my decision making is more advanced and informed.

That's 100% to do with having a more advanced culture around me in 2018, than was available in 1707.

In no way does that make folk today brighter or more intelligent though!

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24 minutes ago, RAG said:

In no way does that make folk today brighter or more intelligent though!

Guys are just as likely to let their dick make decisions for them today as they were in 1700. Peoples lust for cash seems just the same.  

But back to the OP I see Theresa et al. are having as much luck putting Stormont back together as they are getting a consensus on the Irish border. Don't you just love the Irish.

 

Edited by gdevoy
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Your bang on about Brexit and the Irish border being the stumbling block @gdevoy.Then there's the power scheme thingy that officially brought down the last joint administration.. 

Cos of way Stormount works, the nationalists and unionists HAVE to power share.  Not only do you have the traditional sectarian division, but the 2 main parties now have entirely polarised ideologies toward Brexit.  It's like the SNP and UKIP being in power together at Hollyrood - except much, much, much more adversarial.

It's a completely unsustainable situation in the long term, this is the first real test of the 97 GFA in a changing geopolitical world and look where we are at.

Until we know what the sketch is with the Irish border and a customs union, they've little chance of getting a deal.  Especially with the DUP propping up the Tories.  Even if they did get a deal for Sinn Fein and the DUP, it'd no doubt unravel within 12 months, because we still don't know how the UK will leave the EU.

18 months on from the Brexit vote - I'd blame the effing Tories before I blamed the Irish!

 

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Oh, I blame the Tories for the mess that is Brexit but once the Irish are involved that just puts a high power blender into the dogs dinner.

Sinn Fein want legal recognition for Irish Gaelic in the North. In reality it is nothing more than gesture politics, the SNP have given Scots Gaelic similar status here but you will not find the masses suddenly speaking it in the streets or its use in business meetings in Edinburgh or Glasgow or on any but the very smallest amount of legal paperwork.

But Arleen Fraser will die screaming in a ditch before she accedes to this even although it was written into the Good Friday agreement that it would be granted in the fullness of time.

With this mind-set what are the chances of obtaining a pragmatic fudge on the customs union / border issue?

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Scotland, Wales and no doubt the R.O.I. have acts recognising their traditional languages.

N.I. is out of step on that issue with the other UK nations.  Even England, English skills are a requirement to get residency if your from outside the EU.

Border issue is overplayed.  It won't happen and if it did, they'd soon be a cross border poll, which the Brits would almost certainly lose.  Especially as the UK would be breaching the GFA, not the Irish. 

They'll get a special arrangement, which will kick up so much **** in Scotland, it will be announced at the last possible minute - just as Ruth "Get On With The Day Job" Davidson appears on the Great British Bake Off!!

That's why we know f. all about the border - the problems not Ireland - its Scotland!

Irish folk I know are rubbing their hands with glee over Brexit, as there will be a lot of jobs from the UK that go there.

Once there were 65 million English as a first language speakers in the EU, now there's what, about 5 million going forward?

Quids in for the Irish I'd say - English being the international business language. 

I'm guessing Sinn Fein may also be aware of this.  Could be a compelling case for an end to partition in a few years if Ireland gets richer and remain voting N.I. gets poorer.

 

Edited by RAG
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1 hour ago, RAG said:

They'll get a special arrangement, which will kick up so much **** in Scotland, it will be announced at the last possible minute - just as Ruth "Get On With The Day Job" Davidson appears on the Great British Bake Off!!

There would certainly be a lot of political fallout if NI got a special status deal from Brexit

However I'm not sure how this can happen as Arleen would die screaming in a ditch to ensure NI does not get a deal that is an ANY WAY different from the rest of the UK.

Write your answers on a postcard......................

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13 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

There would certainly be a lot of political fallout if NI got a special status deal from Brexit

However I'm not sure how this can happen as Arleen would die screaming in a ditch to ensure NI does not get a deal that is an ANY WAY different from the rest of the UK.

Write your answers on a postcard......................

This, the DUP are utter nut jobs, and would actively work against a deal which is better for their own people all in the name of being “British” (screamed in a high pitched norn iron accent.

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19 hours ago, gdevoy said:

Sinn Fein want legal recognition for Irish Gaelic in the North. In reality it is nothing more than gesture politics, the SNP have given Scots Gaelic similar status here but you will not find the masses suddenly speaking it in the streets or its use in business meetings in Edinburgh or Glasgow or on any but the very smallest amount of legal paperwork.

But Arleen Fraser will die screaming in a ditch before she accedes to this even although it was written into the Good Friday agreement that it would be granted in the fullness of time.

 

DUP want legal recognition for "Ulster Scots" as an official language.

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Boris on Brexit:

UK citizens after Brexit should have the freedom to retire to Spain, work overseas, go on “cheapo flights to stag dos” and fall in love with foreigners just as easily as now, Boris Johnson has said, urging remainers to see the benefits of leaving the EU.

Johnson said the UK would seek “the right deal on aviation and on visa-free travel”, which he said would result in the expansion of British exchanges and travel to the EU.

“We will continue ever more intensively to go on cheapo flights to stag parties in ancient cities, meet interesting people, fall in love, struggle amiably to learn the European languages whose decline has been a paradoxical feature of EU membership,” he said.

“There is no sensible reason why we should not be able to retire to Spain, as indeed we did long before Spain joined the EU, or anywhere else.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/14/boris-johnson-urges-remainers-recognise-benefits-leaving-eu

 

It seems he still wants to have his cake.

 

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