Thebigguy68 Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Right, before I start I fully anticipate to see more red cards than in a Clinton’s shop window at valentines.....but it’s monday and it seems a long way to out next glorious victory on Saturday ( with only another turgid display by the national team in between). So a somewhat controversial ( perhaps) discussion point. Its over 30 years since Wallace mercer proposed the merger of hibs and hearts and the Dundee teams got very close to merging ( takeover perhaps). Obviously the Inverness teams went the whole way. Things have been relatively quiet on the surface at least for last few years. Yet in the intervening years our Domestic teams have enjoyed limited success in Europe, crowds for many of the teams are averaging less than 1000 (yet they still take on the fixed costs of owning and running stadia) and the national team has not made a major tournament. There have been many failed attempts to rejuvenate our game ( foreign coaching, league reconstruction etc) largely ineffectual. There is a simple fact that dominates our plight. There are too many professional teams in Scotland IF ( and only if) improving the standard at the top end of our domestic game is a key priority. If not, let’s continue as we are. It strikes me there is more than a fair chance that European football will further revolve in next few years and that ultimately there will be European leagues for some of the top ranking teams ( not just the super powers but the second and third tier teams too). The other teams will remain in the domestic leagues but the financial gap between those that leave and those that stay will be large and get larger. This may trigger thoughts of merger again as newly formed clubs push to position for the big leagues. This pattern of so called rationalisation happens in many other “industries” ( football is not like other businesses, accepted). Killie doing great right now with a great management team but is it realistic to think we could be part of the big league without some sort of restructuring? Should we preserve our history and identity but accept we may be fishing in the shallow pool of european football or is there any support for the merger path forward if it allowed access to different level of football. Or is there another way? -12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangodog Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 A nasty case of internationalbreakitis. The good news is you should be clear of all infection by Saturday. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Well done for thinking aloud, anyway. The easiest mergers would be in cities such as Dundee where logically there should be one team. Where a county is involved I think you would have to major on the bigger team with the bigger history and fan base eg Kilmarnock, Dunfermline and Motherwell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fankle Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Who would Killie merge with? Joining with Ayr isn't going to increase the talent pool by much and there's no guarantee that attendances would rise, in fact they may fall if a new club is created to which the public have no emotional bond. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 If Killie/ Ayr, StMirren/Morton, Motherwell/Accies,Dundee/United merged, instead of doubling their crowds I am certain they would be halved overnight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 22 minutes ago, Mclean07 said: Well done for thinking aloud, anyway. The easiest mergers would be in cities such as Dundee where logically there should be one team. Where a county is involved I think you would have to major on the bigger team with the bigger history and fan base eg Kilmarnock, Dunfermline and Motherwell. Easiest? Tell that to Dundee or Dundee Utd fans. They'd be lucky to get 50% of the combined support they get just now. Same if you merged Hearts/Hibs or any other teams. If Killie merged with Ayr I'd just sack off watching club football. Doubt I'd be the only one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plunkit Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Have a look at the Irish rugby model and see if that might fit your bill. Since they structured their pro-game into 4 provincial teams with feeders they have won 6 European cups ( 3 different teams ) and 1 Challenge Cup (kinda Europa League thing). Ireland are ranked 2 in the world and won 2 Grand Slams (4 6N Titles) in recent years. Might work -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 It is a slow news day right enough. We are Killie FFS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fankle Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, plunkit said: Have a look at the Irish rugby model and see if that might fit your bill. Since they structured their pro-game into 4 provincial teams with feeders they have won 6 European cups ( 3 different teams ) and 1 Challenge Cup (kinda Europa League thing). Ireland are ranked 2 in the world and won 2 Grand Slams (4 6N Titles) in recent years. Might work The difference (apart from being another sport) is that the Irish provincial teams had existed for 100 years before becoming professional, so the club infrastructure and fan base was already there. Edited March 26, 2018 by Fankle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souleycouley93 Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Or we could stay with our history and play in our own country in our own league. Looks like the international break has sent someone bonkers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 If we merged with Ayr what would that bring s**te team, s**t fan base and s**t manager. In fact forget the latter as Stevie would be in charge. As the old saying goes Ayr Utd WFAANW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangodog Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 48 minutes ago, plunkit said: Have a look at the Irish rugby model and see if that might fit your bill. Since they structured their pro-game into 4 provincial teams with feeders they have won 6 European cups ( 3 different teams ) and 1 Challenge Cup (kinda Europa League thing). Ireland are ranked 2 in the world and won 2 Grand Slams (4 6N Titles) in recent years. Might work The Glasgow model has worked, building up crowds, having a stadium which is just about the right size for most games and producing a decent atmosphere. Edinburgh Rugby on the other hand, hasn't worked for the most part. Murrayfield is too big for club games, apart from the derby with Glasgow and the odd occasion when they do well in Europe, and Myreside is a stopgap until a suitable stadium can be found. The Borders, which was traditionally the heartland of Scottish Rugby no longer has a professional team, but the SRU seem intent on backing a team for Scottish exiles playing in the English Premiership. The Welsh have The Dragons, a kind of Inverness Caley that doesn't please former Newport fans nor former supporters of clubs from the Gwent area. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Superscot Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Fankle said: Who would Killie merge with? Joining with Ayr isn't going to increase the talent pool by much It would seriously affect the gene pool though 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plunkit Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Fankle said: The difference (apart from being another sport) is that the Irish provincial teams had existed for 100 years before becoming professional, so the club infrastructure and fan base was already there. The provinces existed, like Glasgow, Edinburgh, South and North & Midlands in Scotland, because they were seen as a first filter of representative rugby before the national squad. Before professionalism the Irish provinces has fairly low crowds. Their vision was to take the provinces and invest fairly heavily into them. The clubs still maintain their player and fan base but the pro teams play, as far as possible, at different times so that both clubs and provinces can be supported. Seems to work off and on the pitch and with the Celtic nations being 1st 2nd and 3rd in 6 Nations perhaps the Pro 14 is a much stronger league than it is given credit for. All teams it are provincial and/or franchise teams. I don't actually think it would work in Scottish Football because the clubs are too rooted in community and the county/ province ethos is not as strong here, although oddly it works in rugby. Edinburgh have been in European semi finals and a final in the last few years and seem to be heading for a play off this year. Definitely on the rise under a strong coaching team. Their problem getting a Scotstoun style stadium and culture which Glasgow undoubtedly have got right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fankle Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 To emulate the rugby model you'd also need UEFA / FIFA approval as there would be teams competing in Europe that don't play domestically. Eg. Celtic and Rangers contributing to a Glasgow team in the Champions League. I'm sure that would go down swimmingly with their fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 The most obvious merger would be Celtic and Sevco...both in same city...5 billion fan base depending on who you get your information from...when these two merge it would show other the way? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 5 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said: Easiest? Tell that to Dundee or Dundee Utd fans. They'd be lucky to get 50% of the combined support they get just now. Same if you merged Hearts/Hibs or any other teams. If Killie merged with Ayr I'd just sack off watching club football. Doubt I'd be the only one. I said easiest, not easy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 5 hours ago, Fankle said: Who would Killie merge with? Joining with Ayr isn't going to increase the talent pool by much and there's no guarantee that attendances would rise, in fact they may fall if a new club is created to which the public have no emotional bond. We could merge with Ayr. Take Kilmarnock from our name and Football Club from theirs. Blue from our strip and white from theirs. Take Rugby from our ground name and Park from theirs. Bob's your auntie. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyman Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 I'm not sure that a merger of Alloa and Stenhousemuir will have much of an impact on any future European league. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merk Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 1 hour ago, historyman said: I'm not sure that a merger of Alloa and Stenhousemuir will have much of an impact on any future European league. Agreed. Bring Falkirk into the mix though and I reckon European glory awaits. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebigguy68 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 The rational - for what it’s worth - is that fewer teams with greater resources can invest in better facilities and staff providing better development for youth. In turn the players that develop through the hypothetical fas Utd described above will be picked up by the top Scottish teams who can ( because these teams hAve increased resources too) attract and retain better talent. Such teams would in turn, through competition in euro leagues, give this Scottish talent top experience which would nourish the national team. Anyway, with 10 red cards im out for the season so know when I’m beat!! Interesting posts on the comparisons with rugby though - which I confess I’m not too familiar with. One for a later date I guess ( although thought there may be some discussion on ground share as partial step). -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker71 Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 3 hours ago, Mclean07 said: We could merge with Ayr. Take Kilmarnock from our name and Football Club from theirs. Blue from our strip and white from theirs. Take Rugby from our ground name and Park from theirs. Bob's your auntie. And the history and success combined together would make the history and success exactly the same as ours 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTumnus Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 London - Population 8.7 million. Football League clubs 13 Scotland - Population 5.4 million. Football League clubs 42 So to play the merger game I have made up a few rules. Where possible the new merged club should be within 40 minutes travelling time from each feeder club. The new merged club where possible should have a core home support of 6,000 with 10,000 being the target. All clubs would continue to exist within their merger (nobody getting dumped). Top 5 clubs have a large enough fan base to go alone Aberdeen (Peterhead) Ceptic Hearts Hibs (Edinburgh City) *anger* Meeting my made up rules Kilmarnock Ayr United (Ayrshire) St Johnstone Dundee (Tayside) Dundee United Forfar Arbroath Montrose Brechin (Angus) Motherwell Hamilton Albion Rovers Airdrie Clyde (Lanarkshire) Falkirk Alloa Stenhousemuir Stirling Albion Livingston (Stirlingshire) Dunfermline, Raith Rovers, Cowdenbeath, East Fife (Fife) St Mirren Partick Dumbarton Morton Queens Park (Renfrew/Glasgow) Unlikely to meet crowd target ICT Ross County Elgin (Highland) Elgin more than 40mins away Queen of the South, Annan, Stranraer, Berwick Rangers (South of Scotland) Stranraer, Berwick Rangers more than 40min away. That would give us only 14 clubs, enough for one league but no relegation. The infirm would still be way out in front of the rest (crowd & money) but the other clubs would be more even. It would be more like the ice hockey league which survives quite well and has many different league winners. Would fans go for it? Can't see it. Personally I would go to watch our merged club as I love football and I have enjoyed the hypothetical scenario. -5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyman Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Thebigguy68 said: The rational - for what it’s worth - is that fewer teams with greater resources can invest in better facilities and staff providing better development for youth. In turn the players that develop through the hypothetical fas Utd described above will be picked up by the top Scottish teams who can ( because these teams hAve increased resources too) attract and retain better talent. Such teams would in turn, through competition in euro leagues, give this Scottish talent top experience which would nourish the national team. Anyway, with 10 red cards im out for the season so know when I’m beat!! Interesting posts on the comparisons with rugby though - which I confess I’m not too familiar with. One for a later date I guess ( although thought there may be some discussion on ground share as partial step). To be serious for a minute I don't think these changes would make any difference. TV and sponsorship money and the largesse of a few of the obscenely wealthy now dominate the game in Europe and this dictates who wins the prizes. Even a team like Ajax are also-rans in Europe now because they don't have access to the resources the big clubs have. The same goes for the famous clubs in Eastern Europe. As for the national teams, they also play second fiddle to the super-rich clubs. The fact that the EPL is the richest league in the world (and the Championship is up there as well) hasn't led to any improvement in England's performances on the world stage. I'm not sure what the league set-up in Iceland is but having no teams that compete successfully in European club competitions hasn't stopped their national team being massively successful in relation to their resources. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyman Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, MrTumnus said: London - Population 8.7 million. Football League clubs 13 Football League Clubs in London with a chance of winning something at some point in the future - 3 Football League Clubs out of the 92 in England with a chance of winning something meaningful at some point in the future - 5 or 6* Thats a big part of whats wrong with football * - I didn't include Leicester as I'd be amazed if anything like that happened ever again (apart from in Scotland next season obviously) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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