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47 minutes ago, Killiepies said:

The remain campaign had the CBI and other big businesses telling us to vote remain or they would be taking there jobs elsewhere.The then chancellor  ,the head of the Bank of England and numerous others saying there would be an extra 1/2 million unemployed and a recession immediately after a leave vote .Scaremongering at least as has been proved 

Brexit hasn't happened.  I'd guess all the scaremongering was based on the consequences of Brexit actually happening, not just people voting for it to happen.

Internal investment and trading in UK futures is well down since the leave vote, but until the trading mechanisms and rules change, the actual economy won't be affected.

Regarding 500,000 extra unemplyed and this Tory gov; If you work 1 hour per fortnight, you are not considered to be  'unemployed'.  Their dole figures are a load of crap.

 

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55 minutes ago, Killiepies said:

The remain campaign had the CBI and other big businesses telling us to vote remain or they would be taking there jobs elsewhere.The then chancellor  ,the head of the Bank of England and numerous others saying there would be an extra 1/2 million unemployed and a recession immediately after a leave vote .Scaremongering at least as has been proved 

Fk me have you been living in a bubble?

Brexit hasn't happened yet and loads of jobs in the city of london and throughout this island have already moved.

As of November 1st any company making pressure equipment which hasn't lived their certification to a notified body in the EU will NOT he able to sell ANY equipment which is CE marked.

There are s**tloads of other examples which will put thousands and thousands of people out of work.

Brexit will utterly cripple the whole island.

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30 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Brexit will utterly cripple the whole island.

100 years ago UK controlled 1/3 of the world land mass, the sun never set on the empire.

The crippling of the UK happened in the period 1939- to the IMF crisis of the 1970's.

We're just living in the Thatcher and Blair and now Austerity times of managed decline and economic fall out.

Even the USA, adjusted for inflation, average American was at their richest in 1973 in terms of disposable income.

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2 hours ago, Killiepies said:

Ballot had leave or stay not leave with a deal .I think it was pretty obvious that if you voted to leave we left without any deal .We can't leave the EU and still be in the single market as we wouldn't agree to some of the terms required .There was no chance of any deal as long as there is freedom of movement 

The devil is always in the detail. There is no detail about Leaving because as soon as you write anything down, it falls apart. 

It may be "pretty obvious" after the fact "that if you voted to leave we left without any deal" but that was never on the table before the referendum, as the first couple of minutes if this vid shows. Nige was advocating for a better deal than Norway or Switzerland AND staying part of single market.

Also, you can't site anything the Remain campaign said as evidence because Leavers didn't believe them and voted against what they said.

Also, you do know that the Leave campaign broke the law, right? Is that the democracy you're talking about?

When you start lying to yourself then it's all over.

Edited by Scooter
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Let's try a simple example...

When I order stuff from the EU there is NO import duty or VAT to pay because we have a deal with each other.

When I order stuff from outside the EU, there are import charges and VAT to pay on top of the price of the goods.

If there is No Deal, from Nov.1, there will be import charges and VAT to pay on goods bought from the EU, so making things more expensive.

Multiply that exponentially across all goods and services and figure out Nobody voted for things to be more expensive!

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4 minutes ago, Scooter said:

It may be "pretty obvious" after the fact "that if you voted to leave we left without any deal" but that was never on the table before the referendum, as the first couple of minutes if this vid shows. Nige was advocating for a better deal than Norway or Switzerland AND staying part of single market.

 

It's a load of crap, suggesting the 2016 Brexit vote implies support for a No deal in 2019.

They were polling on desired outcomes in June 2016.

  • YouGov poll finds 2-to-1 support for EEA Brexit option
  • Twice as many voters pro Norway style relationship with EU than against
  • Almost half of Leavers want Norway option to be considered despite recent claims to the contrary
  • Majority of UK voters would actively support Norway style relationship in immediate aftermath of vote to Leave
  • No clear mandate to reduce immigration at the cost of securing economic stability

 A YouGov poll released this morning reveals that the majority of voters would support a Norway-style relationship with the European Union in the event of a vote to Leave, involving retaining freedom of movement and some EU regulations in exchange for full access to the single market.
 The new poll, commissioned by the Adam Smith Institute, found that a majority (57%) of Britons believe that the government should consider a relationship with the EU similar to Norway’s, more than double the number opposed to it (24%). And it’s not just Remainers who support the strategy.
 Contrary to recent claims that the EEA option would be a ‘betrayal’ of a vote to Leave, those who oppose the Norway model do not make up the majority (45%), and 42% of Leavers stated that they did in fact want the Norway option to be considered following a vote for Brexit.
 More than half of all respondents (54%) said that they would actively support such a Norway-style agreement as a transitional arrangement for the five-to-ten years after a Brexit vote, more than twice the number who said they would oppose such an arrangement (25%).
 Britons were evenly split on whether protecting free trade with the EU (41%) or reducing immigration (41%) should be the government’s first priority following a vote to Leave, with 18% unsure, showing that there is no clear mandate to reduce immigration at the cost of securing economic stability even in the event of Brexit.

 

Sam Bowman, Executive Director of the Adam Smith Institute, said:
 "By a 2-to-1 margin, the majority of voters support the EEA Option if Britain leaves the EU as a transitional arrangement over five to ten years. This would mean keeping free moment of people in exchange for remaining in the single market, and would be a safe way to leave the EU that would avoid major economic risks or disruption.
 “Voters are clear that the EEA Option should be on the table for a post-Brexit government, with even 42% of Leavers saying that the government should consider this option. Our data shows that voters prefer a safe, steady process of disengagement from the European Union compared to a short, sharp shock – even if that safer process meant keeping freedom of movement for up to ten years.
 "People’s reasons for leaving the EU are varied and this polling rejects attempts by some commentators to frame the referendum as being about immigration alone. Many Leave voters care about sovereignty and ending Britain's membership of the EU’s common policies far more than they do about immigration. Whatever the result on June 23rd, we will be voting on membership of the European Union, nothing more and nothing less. To pretend that it is “actually” about this or that is simply wrong.”

-ENDS-
Notes to editors:
 
*Survey of 1751 GB adults commissioned by the Adam Smith Institute and conducted by YouGov between 6th-8th June 2016.
 The Adam Smith Institute is a free market, libertarian think tank based in London. It advocates classically liberal public policies to create a richer, freer world.

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BoJo has been trying to convince the gullible that we are getting offered a s**t deal from the EU because they want to give us a good kicking for leaving. All we have to do is to seriously threaten them with "no UK trade deal" and they will start to play the white man. 

Actually, no single market integrity is a much bigger problem to them than no UK trade deal and having to go to court to get their £39b.  

Remember "no deal is better than a bad deal" works both ways. If we are out at the end of October we lose 27 trading partners, they lose one.  

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I think the UK negotiating handbook hasn't changed much from the days of Ye Olde Empire. 

Bully them into submission and take everything they have. 

Threaten to walk away and they'll get nothing if they don't deal with you. 

As David Davis demonstrated even agree to a deal then run back to London and tell everyone you have no intention of honouring the deal, it is not binding.

Might have been OK in the olden days before they even had telephone but now the other parties were listening to his speech as he spoke in London. 

And they have a rather simplistic idea of negotiation as simply being the idea of meeting in the middle. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Prahakillie said:

I think the UK negotiating handbook hasn't changed much from the days of Ye Olde Empire. 

Bully them into submission and take everything they have. 

Threaten to walk away and they'll get nothing if they don't deal with you. 

As David Davis demonstrated even agree to a deal then run back to London and tell everyone you have no intention of honouring the deal, it is not binding.

Might have been OK in the olden days before they even had telephone but now the other parties were listening to his speech as he spoke in London. 

And they have a rather simplistic idea of negotiation as simply being the idea of meeting in the middle. 

It's an 'island mentality'.  You could only 'walk away' if you lived on an island - which we do - you couldn't do Brexit as proposed on continental Europe, or anywhere that wasn't a fecking island in the sea.

There is no 'middle ground' or possibility of  'meeting in the middle' cos of the English Channel or North Sea.  Is a group psychology or 'national identity' thing a lot of this Brexit at all costs chat.

Us and them, British exceptionalism on what is our island.  is to many, a regressive group narrative.

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5 minutes ago, Prahakillie said:

And our one land border is exactly what is causing the problem. 

And there you nailed it. As RAG says ................

 you couldn't do Brexit as proposed on continental Europe, or anywhere that wasn't a fecking island in the sea.

...........and the UK is not an island. The government is trying to solve a "being a part of Europe problem" with the good old "island mentality" that has served us so well for 100s of years. If they do solve it, Wee Nicola will be first to point out that if it works for Ireland it can work for Scotland. 

They are 'effed whatever happens. If we leave without a deal, the Irish border issue is not going to go away. BoJ still has to come up with a solution. The EU say no to his proposals now and they will say no to his proposals on the 1st of November.

The "Leavers" seem to be under the delusion that if we just hold our noses until the 1st of November everything will be fine. Wrong! All the issues that cant be resolved now will still be there. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Prahakillie said:

And our one land border is exactly what is causing the problem. 

Brexit is too big to be defined by Ireland or Scotland.  The British nationalism conflated with English self interest  it now represents, won't be stopped by Ireland.  Although, without a special deal for N.I. in aftermath of a No Deal (doesn't necessarily have to happen by Oct. 31st) is impossible to see UK get a USA trade deal.

I reckon a deal on N.I. is what Boris will pull out the bag, sort of averting a 'No Deal' scenario. Mitigating against worst aspects of 'No Deal",  which aren't just more red tape and problems with logistics like on the British Island itself.  DUP won't be pleased, might lead to collapse of government, but is do-able on bigger Tory majority. 

Edited by RAG
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3 minutes ago, RAG said:

I reckon a deal on N.I. is what Boris will pull out the bag,

I don't think Boris has got a bag to pull anything out of. Even if he did throw the DUP under a bus he still could not get a withdrawal agreement through parliament. The bat-s**t nutters would not allow it.

He is sitting with a couple of twos and a couple of fives in his hand hinting to everyone he has four aces. I recon he will just keep on bluffing, he really does seem to have quite a few Tories convinced the EU will give him a deal he can get through.

On the 1st of November when everybody discovers the EU were not playing silly games he will call a snap general election before anybody really realises the s**t we are in. 

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

I don't think Boris has got a bag to pull anything out of. Even if he did throw the DUP under a bus he still could not get a withdrawal agreement through parliament. The bat-s**t nutters would not allow it.

It's possible after a No Deal Brexit, BJ could win a GE, then get a N.I. EU trade deal and Britain a separate USA trade deal.  The Tories don't care about the unionist Irish aspect to achieve the Brexit they want.  The Democrats in the US congress will force the UK's hand in accommodating the EU position on the Irish border.

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22 minutes ago, RAG said:

It's possible after a No Deal Brexit, BJ could win a GE, then get a N.I. EU trade deal and Britain a separate USA trade deal.  The Tories don't care about the unionist Irish aspect to achieve the Brexit they want.  The Democrats in the US congress will force the UK's hand in accommodating the EU position on the Irish border.

That is a way forward for him.

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47 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

That is a way forward for him.

The backstop (and different rules for N.I. under certain circumstances) was agreed by TM gov. already.  If TM hadn't lost overall control at the last GE where she was meant to get a resounding victory to hammer Brexit through, the Backstop wouldn't have been an issue whatsoever.  

The EU ref was a daft idea, cos it forced a not so strong government to adopt a radical policy agenda, you'd need a majority of Tony Blair in 1997 to get through WM.

TM knew her last majority (whatever it was) wasn't enough to carry a radical policy like Brexit, gambled and lost, messing up the UK position over a few years and forcing the lurch to the ERG, DUP position and ultimately Hard Brexit. 

 

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6 hours ago, Scooter said:

Let's try a simple example...

When I order stuff from the EU there is NO import duty or VAT to pay because we have a deal with each other.

When I order stuff from outside the EU, there are import charges and VAT to pay on top of the price of the goods.

If there is No Deal, from Nov.1, there will be import charges and VAT to pay on goods bought from the EU, so making things more expensive.

Multiply that exponentially across all goods and services and figure out Nobody voted for things to be more expensive!

Conned by that snake farage eton bawbag johnson and the sleekit gove

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This speaks for itself...

And here's a wee quick quiz;

Q. Who said this on 26th June 2019? "I am not attracted to archaic devices like proroguing, let's get this thing done as a proud representative democracy"

Oh what tangled webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive! Are we really trusting these lying bunch of c**ts to do what's right by the country and it's people? Really??

It beggars belief that a union of countries that claims to have 'the mother of all parliaments' within it, has a Prime Minister elected by members of his own party, who is shutting down parliament to avoid scrutiny and debate!

It seems completely fine for MPs to tell bare faced lies, or 'change their mind' at will, but totally inconceivable that ordinary citizens could possibly have changed their mind from three years ago!

(A. you already know it was Bozo The Clown)

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9 hours ago, killie1961 said:

Brexit was always going to be impossible because of the gfa

This with bells on.

The GFA is built on an assumption that the UK and Ireland are part of the EU. Cameron did not have the authority to offer leaving the EU on a ballot paper without first dissolving the GFA. The backstop was invented by May to cover this gaff. It is not something the EU inserted. 

The only way to exit the EU with the GFA in place is to throw the DUP under a bus.  Without the GFA there is no US trade deal.

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2 hours ago, david mcbeth said:

in England the ascendance of Johnston has totally polarised people. Leave and Remain now like Celtic and SevCo in terms of the hate expressed towards each other by people, particularly on social media obv but increasingly face to face as well. These divisions are only going to get worse with Johnston and that cabinet ‘in charge’.  The phrase divide and rule was invented for this shower. We must stop debating Brexit which is a busted flush - these self-interested amoral Tories have got all their short selling and bonds etc teed up and their no deal dream will line their pockets . We need to get on with rejecting English Tory rule forever and the only way is to leave the UK - ‘deal or no deal ‘

“The time to buy is when there’s blood on the streets” - disaster capitalism 101.  

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