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SevCo/ Sellick bigots - a different approach


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I taught in a catholic school (in Livingston) for 4 years. Lots of Celtic fans but a fair few Livi, Hearts and Hibs fans too. There were a few rangers fans as well - one boy in particular I remember because he told me he thought Speith was going to win the Masters and I put a fiver on him at 17-1 and got a nice wee win! I was never aware of him getting stick for being non-Catholic (as many pupils were - mainly a mixture of atheist, various CoS, Sikh, Hindu & Muslim) or for being a Rangers fan. I probably got more stick for being a Killie fan! 

I used to be against the existence of denominational schools but now I’m convinced that the bigotry comes from outside schools - mainly learned at home, with some picked up from other places (football and the OO etc).

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1 hour ago, Garvis said:

It’s got nothing to do with what school you went to it’s actually bred into them from the day they are born, they learn to hate the opposite from them. There are hundreds of Killie fans that went to and go to a catholic school and aren’t bitter Protestant hating people. 

Yup also agree with this last sentence..... But the majority are, evidenced by the busloads who go to Ipox every week from all over....same with the Cellick fans.....

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55 minutes ago, Travis said:

I’m not seeing a ‘ban kafflik skools brigade’ - whatever that might be. The only people who ever really say Catholic schools are the problem tend to be that particularly rabid strain of Rangers fans who happen to be the very same ones who targeted Clarke the other night. 

My opinion, and that’s all it is, is that we should refocus that debate. I don’t want to remove Catholic schools as singling one group out is not the solution, but would be very, very happy with removing religion from schools except as fact-based information and given the appropriate weight as a theory. Nothing more.

Spot on. And by default you remove the need for separate schools......

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1 minute ago, Zorro said:

Making all schools catholic, also removes the need for separate schools. You ok with that?

Sorry, that doesn’t make sense. People are saying make all schools non-religious, not ‘get rid of the Catholics!’

I know it’s a bit more nuanced than the usual level of debate in Scotland, which can come across as ‘Catholic schools are the problem’. 

Making all schools non-religions, to be clear, does not mean maintaining the status quo in our so-called non denominational schools. 

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2 minutes ago, Travis said:

Sorry, that doesn’t make sense. People are saying make all schools non-religious, not ‘get rid of the Catholics!’

I know it’s a bit more nuanced than the usual level of debate in Scotland, which can come across as ‘Catholic schools are the problem’. 

Making all schools non-religions, to be clear, does not mean maintaining the status quo in our so-called non denominational schools. 

Sorry, but you just don’t want it to make sense. Make non-denominational schools really non-denominational first, then you can tinker around the edges  of the education system. It still won’t do anything to tackle sectarianism but it would at least look like we were paying lip service to fairness and equality. 

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6 minutes ago, Garvis said:

You have just said make all schools non religious? 

And you said people are taking about banning ‘certain religious schools’. 

I’m not saying that. 

Im saying that the whole wealth of human knowledge and learning is so vast and ever-expanding that there’s a huge  amount of stuff to put in the curriculum. I’m saying there’s no need to also make schools part of religion, which already has its own institutions for involving people (and which I hasten to add I’m not suggesting we ‘ban’)

Religious faith should, IMO, come from a mature place of exploration, understanding and consideration, and should be a free personal choice, not handed down like an old jumper you’re expected to wear. 

Thats a world away from ‘banning certain religious schools’ as you said. 

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7 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Sorry, but you just don’t want it to make sense. Make non-denominational schools really non-denominational first, then you can tinker around the edges  of the education system. It still won’t do anything to tackle sectarianism but it would at least look like we were paying lip service to fairness and equality. 

Do both at once - and also get rid of the private/public schools. Give everyone the same chance in life, the same information, and create a fair, equitable system which allows every child to thrive. 

To be clear again, I am not remotely saying catholic schools are the problem. I spent long enough in them to be well aware that they’re not. 

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14 hours ago, Loudoun Killie said:

Agree mate.

And I say again, get ALL the children into the same schools, don't denominate them! Until this is done (as a minimum) the issue ain't going away.

If they want religion, go to church, or which ever place for their chosen faith.

So glad this doesn't affect us though...….

I agree, however English has something like 2500 RC schools and Scotland has 350 ish and England doesn't have the same bigotry.

It runs far deeper than the schooling IMO

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Am glad you know a 'fair bit about RMPS given your job', Travis. I'm still not quite sure that I follow the argument which avers that 'all religion should be removed from schools' (in the sense of any religious 'content' in a school assembly,which we have agreed perhaps happens on three occasions in an academic year, but it is 'okay' to have RMPS (including visits to mosques, churches, temples etc), and a discussion of various religious views.  Surely the continued presence of RMPS in the curriculum means that you are not 'removing all religion from schools' as you put it.....oh I know unless its as a 'theory'. (Presumably Atheism has to be presented as a 'theory' as well then for example)

Serious question......IF there was no religious input at assemblies in non-denominational schools (please don't term or style them 'C of S schools', when they so blatantly aren't), tell me in what way this would help to eradicate sectarianism in Scotland? The argument seems to be that you aren't enabling students to make up their own mind about religion if they hear a minister reciting a prayer 3 times a year...does that mean that a good number of students think after having heard a prayer at Assembly, 'you know what, I'm going to become Christian now'?

Edited by Jedi2
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My original post was about shaming people in the workplace and/or disadvantaging them in business as a tactic for addressing bigoted behaviours and attitudes which run deeper than football. I can understand why the discussion went on to the merits or otherwise of religiously based schools but I was seeking to address bigotry directly not ruminate about what might (or might not) cause or nurture it.

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47 minutes ago, Jedi2 said:

Am glad you know a 'fair bit about RMPS given your job', Travis. I'm still not quite sure that I follow the argument which avers that 'all religion should be removed from schools' (in the sense of any religious 'content' in a school assembly,which we have agreed perhaps happens on three occasions in an academic year, but it is 'okay' to have RMPS (including visits to mosques, churches, temples etc), and a discussion of various religious views.  Surely the continued presence of RMPS in the curriculum means that you are not 'removing all religion from schools' as you put it.....oh I know unless its as a 'theory'. (Presumably Atheism has to be presented as a 'theory' as well then for example)

Serious question......IF there was no religious input at assemblies in non-denominational schools (please don't term or style them 'C of S schools', when they so blatantly aren't), tell me in what way this would help to eradicate sectarianism in Scotland? The argument seems to be that you aren't enabling students to make up their own mind about religion if they hear a minister reciting a prayer 3 times a year...does that mean that a good number of students think after having heard a prayer at Assembly, 'you know what, I'm going to become Christian now'?

I’m glad your glad, thanks. 

Since you’ve pre-answered or repeated most of my points I’m not sure what additional value I can offer you tbh. I’d only repeat again that I’m sharing my view, and fine and open to other views. 

With that in mind, my view of education in this context is that you teach people about moral codes and ethics from a young age, introduce the facts of what various cultures and religions believe (not from the perspective of ‘ours is right, here’s some others FYI), build on that with moral and philosophical capacity-building then allow those who want to explore this area further to study via RMPS in senior phase  

And, yes, I maintain that all viewpoints in relation to the existence and/or non-existence of a deity should be taught as theories and couched in terms of ‘The set of beliefs of X group are...’ and I’m entirely comfortable including atheism here since schools are about the development of knowledge, skills and understanding, And preparing people to deal with the unknowables, not presenting unknowables as facts.

You will, I hope, note that I’m not singling any religious belief system out for preferential treatment or punishment, nor have I at any stage claimed that removal of religious schools would ‘eradicate sectarianism’.

However, taking batches of new children and separating them into sub-batches dependent predominantly on which marginally different version of the same branch of one religion their parents were born into and so on, doesn’t really make for a particularly integrated or level society. And you are not, in my view, creating the fertile ground upon which children can build their own system of beliefs and moral and ethical code based on informed enquiry and knowledge if you give them an experience from a young age which either explicitly or tacitly makes comment on the ‘right’ sub branch to adhere to.

Happy to repeat again though, it’s is not the root cause. Most complex problems have many causes and require a nuanced, multi-faceted approach to solving them so I am absolutely not the cheerleader for removing Catholic schools to solve the problem. It’s way more complex than that, and the words you put in my mouth in your last par are not ones I’ve used nor recognise as a cogent argument.

I’m comfortable with people believing in a religion. I’m comfortable with people not believing in a religion. I’m comfortable with the existence of places of worship for all religions as the seats of religious learning and celebration. I’m comfortable with schools as the seats of enquiry and development of knowledge, skills and understanding.

But just my $0.02 as I say.

 

Edited by Travis
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If those in power had any balls, they'd simply shut the stands the singing comes from for a set number of games, then shut the ground should it continue.

In other leagues, if discriminatory behaviour comes from the stands this is pretty commonplace.

Ditto with Sky and BT broadcasting discriminatory songs on the telly - if it continues, they shouldn't broadcast it on a Health and Safety basis as its likely to cause offence before 9pm.

The blame for this lies solely at football authorities and broadcasters - alongside those doing the signing.

If you or I held an event with anti catholic singing in Glasgow, you probably wouldn't get a safety certificate for the next one a fortnight later.

Why are football clubs any different?  The authorities have the power to stop it - they just don't use it.

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7 minutes ago, david mcbeth said:

My original post was about shaming people in the workplace and/or disadvantaging them in business as a tactic for addressing bigoted behaviours and attitudes which run deeper than football. I can understand why the discussion went on to the merits or otherwise of religiously based schools but I was seeking to address bigotry directly not ruminate about what might (or might not) cause or nurture it.

And I’m in agreement - bigotry/sectarianism should be addressed directly as and when it appears in business or society in exactly the same way as intolerance of the other protected characteristics are increasingly challenged as a matter of course. 

Silent approval of it should no longer be an option. 

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1 hour ago, Travis said:

And you said people are taking about banning ‘certain religious schools’. 

I’m not saying that. 

Im saying that the whole wealth of human knowledge and learning is so vast and ever-expanding that there’s a huge  amount of stuff to put in the curriculum. I’m saying there’s no need to also make schools part of religion, which already has its own institutions for involving people (and which I hasten to add I’m not suggesting we ‘ban’)

Religious faith should, IMO, come from a mature place of exploration, understanding and consideration, and should be a free personal choice, not handed down like an old jumper you’re expected to wear. 

Thats a world away from ‘banning certain religious schools’ as you said. 

Sorry but you using big words doesn’t change what you said, make school non religious that sounds to me you want to ban religion in schools. Am I missing something here. 

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1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I agree, however English has something like 2500 RC schools and Scotland has 350 ish and England doesn't have the same bigotry.

It runs far deeper than the schooling IMO

100% spot on. 

It runs far deeper than schools and tbh I don’t think we’ll ever rid the west of Scotland of it. 

What is feasible is to try remove it from football but the only way to start making a dent in that is for Police Scotland to grow a pair of balls and start removing people from games & i’m not talking just the one or two token ones per game. 

If the police started to then report those names back to the clubs & those clubs involved started issuing banning orders then we might start to get somewhere. 

Will that ever happen? I wont hold my breath

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10 minutes ago, Garvis said:

Sorry but you using big words doesn’t change what you said, make school non religious that sounds to me you want to ban religion in schools. Am I missing something here. 

Sorry, I just think of them as ‘words’. 

 

I think the word word certain is important here. You claimed I said I wanted to ‘ban’ certain schools. I clearly haven’t said that at any point.

 

Edited by Travis
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This is a useful discussion on tackling sectarianism in our society in the wider sense, and yes, that does, rightly involve a discussion of the place of religion in schools, with the different views which have been aired on this thread.

The two most 'public' expressions we have of the problem however, are of course Rangers and Celtic fans in and around stadia (as well as on social media, and the media in general), as well as Orange Order and Connolly Society/Republican marches. I accept as well, that as some have pointed out in the thread that sectarian views can arise in the workplace.

There is a whole other debate to be had on whether or not we can or should ban Orange/Connolly style marches. On the surface it seems a straightforward one..why should we allow folk to be out on the streets celebrating the Battle of the Boyne or the actions of the IRA? On the other hand, it would down the route of expressions of 'culture' etc as it does in N.Ireland.If we could take the marches off the streets it would seem to be a step forward, but...

We would still be left with behaviour in and around the stadiums every week. Until such times as the govt and the football authorities take proper action A start would be the media putting the spotlight on both clubs every weekend, every time the songs start..report it, don't just wait for incidents which we have experienced in the past week, and the bravery of SC and others to raise it. If it was regularly commented on the general public would surely be on board on agreeing that this has to stop, now.

Edited by Jedi2
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40 minutes ago, Travis said:

Sorry, I just think of them as ‘words’. 

 

I think the word word certain is important here. You claimed I said I wanted to ‘ban’ certain schools. I clearly haven’t said that at any point.

 

If you want non religious schools which if I recall you said, does that not mean you want to do away with religious schools.

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