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7 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

The very same decisions taken by Holyrood . 
 

This is where I get confused you see. The care home debacle is identical all over the UK. But while it was the fault of incompetent government in England  it was the fault of greedy care homes in Scotkand.

Perhaps somebody can explain how they are so certain they can see a different cause for the same effect?

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40 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

This is where I get confused you see. The care home debacle is identical all over the UK. But while it was the fault of incompetent government in England  it was the fault of greedy care homes in Scotkand.

Perhaps somebody can explain how they are so certain they can see a different cause for the same effect?

Follow the money. 

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

This is where I get confused you see. The care home debacle is identical all over the UK. But while it was the fault of incompetent government in England  it was the fault of greedy care homes in Scotkand.

Perhaps somebody can explain how they are so certain they can see a different cause for the same effect?

The truth is the care homes accepted patients discharged from NHS hospitals whose instructions came from governments in order to clear beds for the incoming influx of covid patients . 

Should the care homes have accepted those patients ....probably not without the appropriate checks and equipment

Should the NHS hospitals have discharged those patients ...probably not without the appropriate checks 

Should the respective governments have allowed/ordered this to happen ....definitely not 

Classic chain of command or responsibility. The higher up the chain the further you are away from the actions and repercussions of those instigated .My sympathies , not withstanding the victims , are with the Care Homes and hospitals operating under difficult conditions 

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1 hour ago, Bonbon19 said:

The very same decisions taken by Holyrood . 
 

all govts are to blame for this 

Missed the point entirely as usual your defence of WM is a knee jerk reaction.  I actually said the decision was wrong, but unless the test was 100% and no one was asymptomatic then no one could have prevented this.

however the politicisation of this situation is abhorrent and being done by WM to cover up their screwups.

youre too intelligent not to know that 

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Afaik, Fullarton Care Home in Irvine has had 22 deaths but up the road, Buckreddan in Kilwinning has had zero.

That's not just down to luck. Care homes registered in the Cayman Islands will have one priority, and it's not their residents.

 

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23 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

however the politicisation of this situation is abhorrent and being done by WM to cover up their screwups.

I agree with the first part, not sure if its only being done by WM, Ian Murray is not a representative of government. They are trying to use the issue to beat up the SNP using arguaments that equally apply to WM.

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16 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Missed the point entirely as usual your defence of WM is a knee jerk reaction.  I actually said the decision was wrong, but unless the test was 100% and no one was asymptomatic then no one could have prevented this.

however the politicisation of this situation is abhorrent and being done by WM to cover up their screwups.

youre too intelligent not to know that 

So I’m bad when I point out the Scottish govt followed the actions of the WM one ? The WM govt I’ve criticised often on here , your eagerness to point out my union tendencies on this is wide of the mark .

As Gdevoy points out rather well in England it’s the govts fault yet up here we’re lead to believe by the independence supporters it’s the care homes fault ? You can’t have it both ways . Holyrood undoubtedly followed WMs decree on this so must carry the same amount of blame . The attempts to deflect from this fact does the independence cause more harm than good . The voters aren’t daft they’ll see the fiasco that is WM , the Swedish govt still retains a relatively high level of confidence with the public despite their death toll , very possibly because they apologised for their strategy and were truthful with the population. There’s no doubt Sturgeon has done the better job overall and perhaps she should follow the Swedish example wrt this situation. 

 

 

 

 


 

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16 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

So I’m bad when I point out the Scottish govt followed the actions of the WM one ? The WM govt I’ve criticised often on here , your eagerness to point out my union tendencies on this is wide of the mark .

As Gdevoy points out rather well in England it’s the govts fault yet up here we’re lead to believe by the independence supporters it’s the care homes fault ? You can’t have it both ways . Holyrood undoubtedly followed WMs decree on this so must carry the same amount of blame . The attempts to deflect from this fact does the independence cause more harm than good . The voters aren’t daft they’ll see the fiasco that is WM , the Swedish govt still retains a relatively high level of confidence with the public despite their death toll , very possibly because they apologised for their strategy and were truthful with the population. There’s no doubt Sturgeon has done the better job overall and perhaps she should follow the Swedish example wrt this situation. 

 

 

 

 


 

I didn’t say care home deaths were swam fault, indeed if you actually read my post you’d have noticed I said it was no ones fault in particular, but the politicisation absolutely is the fault of the unionists.

this aspect of the crisis which can be identified at most if not ALL governments globally is somehow the fault of the SNP alone.  Ian Murray, Carlaw, Rees amigo, BoJo and others are pointing the finger to try and misdirect their masses from their massive screw ups.  The track and trace app, PPE, Cummings, etc. They make so much noise Every time they screw up to misdirect the masses from seeing them as they are.  Lying incompetent money grabbing bastards

 

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1 hour ago, Bonbon19 said:

As Gdevoy points out rather well in England it’s the govts fault yet up here we’re lead to believe by the independence supporters it’s the care homes fault ? You can’t have it both ways . Holyrood undoubtedly followed WMs decree on this so must carry the same amount of blame .
The attempts to deflect from this fact does the independence cause more harm than good . The voters aren’t daft they’ll see the fiasco that is WM , the Swedish govt still retains a relatively high level of confidence with the public despite their death toll , very possibly because they apologised for their strategy and were truthful with the population. There’s no doubt Sturgeon has done the better job overall and perhaps she should follow the Swedish example wrt this situation. 

It can’t be the U.K. government and the care homes fault, it can only be the Scottish government and the Westminster governments fault or the care homes fault? 
 

Why did you vote to remain part of a union where you want the Scottish government to do everything differently from U.K. policy? Like it or not, the U.K. government advice was there was no need for testing of asymptomatic patients prior to discharge from hospital. They are to blame for the failure of that policy. However, care homes have a duty of care to their residents. They weren’t forced to take more residents. They weren’t told they couldn’t quarantine them. They took a business decision based on their business model and it backfired on them, resulting in hundreds of unnecessary deaths. They must also accept responsibility for their actions. 
 

But I can see why it would be attractive for unionists for “wee Nicola” to put her hand up and say it was all her fault. Claiming it may help the independence movement is a bit of a stretch though. Especially when unionists would use it as a stick to beat her with. Two things puzzle me, if as you suggest this is a genuine attempt to help her; why would a committed unionists want to help her and as she already has greater public confidence than Boris, why aren’t you pitching the idea at him? Surely his failure to accept the blame is putting further strain on your precious union, no?

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2 hours ago, Bonbon19 said:

So I’m bad when I point out the Scottish govt followed the actions of the WM one ? The WM govt I’ve criticised often on here , your eagerness to point out my union tendencies on this is wide of the mark .

As Gdevoy points out rather well in England it’s the govts fault yet up here we’re lead to believe by the independence supporters it’s the care homes fault ? You can’t have it both ways . Holyrood undoubtedly followed WMs decree on this so must carry the same amount of blame . The attempts to deflect from this fact does the independence cause more harm than good . The voters aren’t daft they’ll see the fiasco that is WM , the Swedish govt still retains a relatively high level of confidence with the public despite their death toll , very possibly because they apologised for their strategy and were truthful with the population. There’s no doubt Sturgeon has done the better job overall and perhaps she should follow the Swedish example wrt this situation. 

 

 

 

 


 

Whatever your political persuasion is it is a absolute disgrace and scandal that opening pubs and restaurants before they can sort out Getting our children back to school is beyond belief what kind of mentality has this country come to putting alcohol as the most important thing in the world absolutely pathetic we will see the results in 3 weeks absolute idiots

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15 minutes ago, killie1961 said:

Whatever your political persuasion is it is a absolute disgrace and scandal that opening pubs and restaurants before they can sort out Getting our children back to school is beyond belief what kind of mentality has this country come to putting alcohol as the most important thing in the world absolutely pathetic we will see the results in 3 weeks absolute idiots

London’s R number rises above 1, Londoners go on an all day super Saturday bevy session to celebrate. Boris and his cabinet gleefully rub their hands. This will be used to gaslight the British public into thinking their fellow citizens are responsible for the huge number of deaths. 

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7 minutes ago, Zorro said:

London’s R number rises above 1, Londoners go on an all day super Saturday bevy session to celebrate. Boris and his cabinet gleefully rub their hands. This will be used to gaslight the British public into thinking their fellow citizens are responsible for the huge number of deaths. 

 

7 minutes ago, Zorro said:

London’s R number rises above 1, Londoners go on an all day super Saturday bevy session to celebrate. Boris and his cabinet gleefully rub their hands. This will be used to gaslight the British public into thinking their fellow citizens are responsible for the huge number of deaths. 

Any half wit could see this coming they did the same thing when he announced lockdown and they were all seen in london getting smashed but not the eton tosser Yip i get your point shift the blame on johnny englander

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11 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

I didn’t say care home deaths were swam fault, indeed if you actually read my post you’d have noticed I said it was no ones fault in particular, but the politicisation absolutely is the fault of the unionists.

this aspect of the crisis which can be identified at most if not ALL governments globally is somehow the fault of the SNP alone.  Ian Murray, Carlaw, Rees amigo, BoJo and others are pointing the finger to try and misdirect their masses from their massive screw ups.  The track and trace app, PPE, Cummings, etc. They make so much noise Every time they screw up to misdirect the masses from seeing them as they are.  Lying incompetent money grabbing bastards

 

I agree it’s no ones fault in particular but if you’re alluding to the opposition parties asking questions at Holyrood about this as politicalisation of it , then we must disagree. That’s their job surely ? The Tory govt at WM have been questioned on this point as well iirc. Perhaps the independence supporters are over sensitive on this as it’s one of the very very few mistakes made by Sturgeon ? 

No ones saying it’s only the SNP’s fault for this , it’s the fault of all govts who failed to prepare for such a scenario despite the warnings .
 

As for the WM govts faults , you’ll get no argument from me . 

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10 hours ago, Zorro said:

It can’t be the U.K. government and the care homes fault, it can only be the Scottish government and the Westminster governments fault or the care homes fault? 
 

Why did you vote to remain part of a union where you want the Scottish government to do everything differently from U.K. policy? Like it or not, the U.K. government advice was there was no need for testing of asymptomatic patients prior to discharge from hospital. They are to blame for the failure of that policy. However, care homes have a duty of care to their residents. They weren’t forced to take more residents. They weren’t told they couldn’t quarantine them. They took a business decision based on their business model and it backfired on them, resulting in hundreds of unnecessary deaths. They must also accept responsibility for their actions. 
 

But I can see why it would be attractive for unionists for “wee Nicola” to put her hand up and say it was all her fault. Claiming it may help the independence movement is a bit of a stretch though. Especially when unionists would use it as a stick to beat her with. Two things puzzle me, if as you suggest this is a genuine attempt to help her; why would a committed unionists want to help her and as she already has greater public confidence than Boris, why aren’t you pitching the idea at him? Surely his failure to accept the blame is putting further strain on your precious union, no?

The point I’ve tried , and it appears I’m failing miserably , to make is that it is the collective responsibility of all govts to protect their citizens and it was their policies that caused this . I refer you to my previous post/s .There is a report in the Telegraph today that says ministers were warned about this very scenario in early April I will attempt to post it later . 
 

As for voting for a union party in Scotland , that’s surely my right ? . But I realise that the SNP will have different policies that I might support and some I might not . You’re sticking to your opinion that it’s all the fault of the U.K. govt and care homes and I see I can’t change that , we’ll have to disagree and move on . 
 

As for my advice to Sturgeon and all political leaders who sanctioned or followed this policy , I feel it would be in their best interests to apologise now as I’m certain any inquiry will find fault with it . I’m also aware that Johnson has no redeeming features and as he has demonstrated no remorse and a series of bad judgements so it would not be welcomed so why bother ? And Johnson is not the union just it’s unfortunate head boy at the moment . 
 

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10 hours ago, killie1961 said:

Whatever your political persuasion is it is a absolute disgrace and scandal that opening pubs and restaurants before they can sort out Getting our children back to school is beyond belief what kind of mentality has this country come to putting alcohol as the most important thing in the world absolutely pathetic we will see the results in 3 weeks absolute idiots

Couldn’t agree more . 

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8 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

The point I’ve tried , and it appears I’m failing miserably , to make is that it is the collective responsibility of all govts to protect their citizens and it was their policies that caused this . I refer you to my previous post/s .There is a report in the Telegraph today that says ministers were warned about this very scenario in early April I will attempt to post it later . 
 

As for voting for a union party in Scotland , that’s surely my right ? . But I realise that the SNP will have different policies that I might support and some I might not . You’re sticking to your opinion that it’s all the fault of the U.K. govt and care homes and I see I can’t change that , we’ll have to disagree and move on . 
 

As for my advice to Sturgeon and all political leaders who sanctioned or followed this policy , I feel it would be in their best interests to apologise now as I’m certain any inquiry will find fault with it . I’m also aware that Johnson has no redeeming features and as he has demonstrated no remorse and a series of bad judgements so it would not be welcomed so why bother ? And Johnson is not the union just it’s unfortunate head boy at the moment . 
 

The point you’ve either failed to take into account or are wilfully ignoring is that some governments are more equal than others. There is only one government in this union with all the levers required to tackle a pandemic. It ain’t at Holyrood. The buck stops at Westminster. 
 

The Scottish government shouldn’t need to commission their own scientific advice. We’re already paying the U.K. for it. Remember the phrase “pooling and sharing resources”? That’s what it’s supposed to be about. Perhaps that’s the main lesson here. Don’t trust the U.K. government to give independent advice. Their advice is always filtered through the lens of what’s best for them. And when I say them I don’t mean any nation. I mean individuals. 

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1 hour ago, Bonbon19 said:

I agree it’s no ones fault in particular but if you’re alluding to the opposition parties asking questions at Holyrood about this as politicalisation of it , then we must disagree. That’s their job surely ? The Tory govt at WM have been questioned on this point as well iirc. Perhaps the independence supporters are over sensitive on this as it’s one of the very very few mistakes made by Sturgeon ? 

No ones saying it’s only the SNP’s fault for this , it’s the fault of all govts who failed to prepare for such a scenario despite the warnings .
 

As for the WM govts faults , you’ll get no argument from me . 

Of course it’s politicking. One party is trying to deflect from their own parties sheer incompetence at U.K. level, the other is trying to attack what they see as the party who stole all “their” voters. You’re right about one thing though, they’re doing what they’re paid to do. Unfortunately the pay isn’t from the electorate, it’s from the people who finance their campaigns. You can go on YouTube and see both major opposition parties at Holyrood berating the Scottish government for not discharging patients to care homes sooner. Now it was done too soon for them. 
 

I’m not going to allow you to try and pretend the Scottish government are equally responsible because they failed to prepare for this. It would’ve required new money, not the reallocation of their existing budget to prepare. Again you have to look southward to find the people responsible for dragging their feet. 

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12 hours ago, killie1961 said:

Whatever your political persuasion is it is a absolute disgrace and scandal that opening pubs and restaurants before they can sort out Getting our children back to school is beyond belief what kind of mentality has this country come to putting alcohol as the most important thing in the world absolutely pathetic we will see the results in 3 weeks absolute idiots

This squared with bells on! Pubs should be the very last thing to open. After schools, churches and football grounds. To open pubs first shows clearly they are being driven by economics and populism rather than any kind of good sense.  

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18 minutes ago, Shropshire_killie said:

Fab comment on Dateline London from the US foreign correspondent "Boris Johnson is lucky Trump is in charge in the US, as otherwise Johnson would be shown as the most incompetent leader in the Western world"

:)

 

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

This squared with bells on! Pubs should be the very last thing to open. After schools, churches and football grounds. To open pubs first shows clearly they are being driven by economics and populism rather than any kind of good sense.  

They should at least have been shut till after barbers n hairdressers, so everyone could've got spruced up for the big nite out. We want haircuts! :)

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6 hours ago, Bonbon19 said:

I agree it’s no ones fault in particular but if you’re alluding to the opposition parties asking questions at Holyrood about this as politicalisation of it , then we must disagree. That’s their job surely ? The Tory govt at WM have been questioned on this point as well iirc. Perhaps the independence supporters are over sensitive on this as it’s one of the very very few mistakes made by Sturgeon ? 

No ones saying it’s only the SNP’s fault for this , it’s the fault of all govts who failed to prepare for such a scenario despite the warnings .
 

As for the WM govts faults , you’ll get no argument from me . 

So at the start you say its noones fault in particular and then at then end you say its on if the very few mistakes NS has made.

Maybe I'm missing some odd nuance here, but your poast seems to be it was noones fault as such but we will say it was a mistake made by the SNP led Scottish Government anyway.

For me it was something which, without hindsight or information w.r.t the asymptomatic wildcard,  that all or most governments would and did make.  I'm with Z on the failure of the care homes to also observe correct quarantine protocols, but likewise have a lot of sympathy for them as all the info pointed away from these unfortunate people beinf infected and infectious.

I would also say unreservedly that the politicisation of this isn't the unionist london funded parties doing their parliamentary job, its delibrerate two faced SNP baad to deflect from the cluster WM have made of this, and also to try and hide that that there's now a clear majority for independence in ALL of the latest polls.

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Interesting post Bonbon. On 10 March it was reported by US that the bulk of deaths in Italy were of older people. The signals were all there then,  well in advance and "we", still did nothing to ensure protection of our older folk. It seems then it was more down to government dithering as opposed to bad scientific advice. The "ring of steel", remark by Johnson rings so hollow.  

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