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55 minutes ago, skygod said:

Look at the opinion polls. Listen to the radio phone-ins. 

Many Conservative voters are furious. 

 

They are just letting off steam. By the time another Election comes around they will be back to hating foreigners and bashing immigrants and "lefties" as is their collective wont.

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Helen Whately demonstrated on QT what’s wrong with this govt , didn’t seem to even know the basics about her brief . 

Edited by Bonbon19

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2 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

Helen Whately demonstrated on QT what’s wrong with this govt , didn’t seem to even know the basics about her remit . 

I'd have a lot more respect for these Tories if they wore badges on TV saying 'BS', rather than ones reminding them which department they work for.

Say what you like about Scottish politics, but these Tory ministers wouldn't last 5 minutes up 'ere.

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Ian Murray demonstrates on QT what’s wrong with Scottish Labour. “Haw Ian, what do you make of yon Dom Cummings lad and his jaunt about the country?”. Ian puffs out his chest and pulls himself up to his full 5ft 4in and says “Dominic Cummings? Don’t get me started, but what this highlights to me is the SNP are bad”. 

Edited by Zorro

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Wee Murray another typical BritNat who's absolutely desperate to keep control of what happens in Scotland, Wales and NI at Westminster, even if it's perpetual Tory s**thousery ...far more concerned about attacking the Scottish Government than his Tory pals in London. 

A glaring example of why the branch office is now an irrelevance in Scotland.

 

 

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On 5/26/2020 at 7:58 PM, RAG said:

BoJo (-25%) doing spectacularly badly compared to Sturgeon (+74%).   Are absolutely honking numbers for a PM with such a big and recent majority.

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I have no political axe to grind on this point. The ratings for the Scottish government are a joke (and I don't care a flying fox that it's an SNP executive). The number of deaths in Scottish care homes is criminal. The prior experience of China, Spain and Italy highlighted the dangers. The  continued use of staff in more than one home, untested discharge from hospitals and the absence of testing of staff and residents have received next to bugger all critical attention in the Scottish press. The scientific community highlighted the likely outcome and these warnings were ignored. Are we really so crass as to glory in Johnson's incompetence whilst our own old folks die, unremarked, in even greater (relative) numbers than in England? Shame on our frigging smugness.

 

Edited by mackpomm

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10 hours ago, KenVaagen1984 said:

They are just letting off steam. By the time another Election comes around they will be back to hating foreigners and bashing immigrants and "lefties" as is their collective wont.

While I agree with your point that thui Cummings incident will not directly impact on the Tories re-election chances, I also think skygid has a valid point that it has damaged Johnstons standing within his own party. Hiw that might manifest itself in the days ahead I dont know but condemning people who reinterpret his lockdown guidelines based on their own instinct us going to ring pretty hollow.

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6 hours ago, mackpomm said:

I have no political axe to grind on this point. The ratings for the Scottish government are a joke (and I don't care a flying fox that it's an SNP executive). The number of deaths in Scottish care homes is criminal. The prior experience of China, Spain and Italy highlighted the dangers. The  continued use of staff in more than one home, untested discharge from hospitals and the absence of testing of staff and residents have received next to bugger all critical attention in the Scottish press. The scientific community highlighted the likely outcome and these warnings were ignored. Are we really so crass as to glory in Johnson's incompetence whilst our own old folks die, unremarked, in even greater (relative) numbers than in England? Shame on our frigging smugness.

 

Away and throw s**te at the moon. The decision to move ASYMPTOMATIC elderly patients back to their care homes was done with the best of intentions. We were preparing for the whole system to be overwhelmed. The SAGE advice at the time was there was no need to test and the country didn’t have the capacity anyway. It is far easier to barrier nurse patients in single rooms, such as in care homes. Rather than in a four or six bed bay scenario where they’d have to share sinks, toilets, showers etc. Care home staffing and PPE isn’t the responsibility of the care home provider. And I think the only thing you actually got right was this behaviour was criminal and I’d like to see the care home providers prosecuted. Finally anyone who gets worked up about an opinion poll is a moron. 

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21 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Away and throw s**te at the moon. The decision to move ASYMPTOMATIC elderly patients back to their care homes was done with the best of intentions. We were preparing for the whole system to be overwhelmed. The SAGE advice at the time was there was no need to test and the country didn’t have the capacity anyway. It is far easier to barrier nurse patients in single rooms, such as in care homes. Rather than in a four or six bed bay scenario where they’d have to share sinks, toilets, showers etc. Care home staffing and PPE isn’t the responsibility of the care home provider. And I think the only thing you actually got right was this behaviour was criminal and I’d like to see the care home providers prosecuted. Finally anyone who gets worked up about an opinion poll is a moron. 

As early as March 29th some care home managers were advising that it wasn’t safe to take patients discharged from hospital as they recognised they weren’t equipped to deal with this properly , probably  due to PPE and staffing shortages . Yet there pleas were ignored .
It was a catch 22 situation for the authorities and the choice that was made was done with the best of intentions but they should recognise their failings . Hiding behind SAGE guidelines is a cop out and has been questioned on here on many occasions  Again it should be recognised that in 60% of care homes there has been been no deaths , whether this is due to good nursing care , good luck ,by a refusal to accept discharged patients or a combination I’ve no idea . I agree that some care homes should be held to account if it is proven they were negligent but quite a few did the very best they could with very frail elderly and vulnerable people but I’d imagine that even if they were in hospital the outcome would have been the same . 
Also I assume  you meant to write care home staffing and PPE IS the responsibility of the care home ? 

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52 minutes ago, Zorro said:

..... Finally anyone who gets worked up about an opinion poll is a moron. 

Did you lift this gem from Trump's guide to media relations?

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10 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

As early as March 29th some care home managers were advising that it wasn’t safe to take patients discharged from hospital as they recognised they weren’t equipped to deal with this properly , probably  due to PPE and staffing shortages . Yet there pleas were ignored .
It was a catch 22 situation for the authorities and the choice that was made was done with the best of intentions but they should recognise their failings . Hiding behind SAGE guidelines is a cop out and has been questioned on here on many occasions  Again it should be recognised that in 60% of care homes there has been been no deaths , whether this is due to good nursing care , good luck ,by a refusal to accept discharged patients or a combination I’ve no idea . I agree that some care homes should be held to account if it is proven they were negligent but quite a few did the very best they could with very frail elderly and vulnerable people but I’d imagine that even if they were in hospital the outcome would have been the same . 
Also I assume  you meant to write care home staffing and PPE IS the responsibility of the care home ? 

You can’t force a care home to take patients. And they are ultimately responsible for patients in their care. End of story. 

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21 minutes ago, mackpomm said:

Did you lift this gem from Trump's guide to media relations?

Your populist rant had more in common with Trumps output than mine did 

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24 minutes ago, Zorro said:

You can’t force a care home to take patients. And they are ultimately responsible for patients in their care. End of story. 

No more questions then Boris?

I am not trying to point the finger at any one sector or the Scottish executive. But it does seem that lots of mistakes have been made and the, often enforced, compromises chosen have not been good ones. Despite the headline death figures, I was not inferring Scotlands care homes had performed worst than their English counterparts.

But I think it is reasonable to ask if Scotland could have done things differently. It looks to me as if organisations have not been willing to take individual responsibility and certainly when challenged, do not regard themselves as accountable. The opinion poll is consistent with  "anything bad, London, anything good, Edinburgh" and I find this uncritical perspective worrying. This is not a party political point.

 

Edited by mackpomm

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18 minutes ago, mackpomm said:

No more questions then Boris?

I am not trying to point the finger at any one sector or the Scottish executive. But it does seem that lots of mistakes have been made and the, often enforced, compromises chosen have not been good ones. Despite the headline death figures, I was not inferring Scotlands care homes had performed worst than their English counterparts.

But I think it is reasonable to ask if Scotland could have done things differently. It looks to me as if organisations have not been willing to take individual responsibility and certainly when challenged, do not regard themselves as accountable. The opinion poll is consistent with  "anything bad, London, anything good, Edinburgh" and I find this uncritical perspective worrying. This is not a party political point.

 

The ONLY political leader on this island who has publically and constantly said they would make mistakes is the FM.  WM arrogance that they are totally right and if they're proven wrong they lie, publish bulls**t propaganda, misdirect and generally obsfucate to the point of disinterest amongst the public will not get around the facts.

Were mistakes made, yes but these only became visible with hindsight.  NS has also stated her thoughts and feeling of responsibility on the mistakes.

If anyone is  likely to learn from them and make different choices is the FM and Scottish GOVERNMENT( not the executive which didn't seem a freudian slip at all but an overtly political comment from you, apologies if you didnt mean it that way).  The UK govt will not learn as they simply beleive they are right about everything and then twist the facts and produce fake news to show them to be rights then forget about the creation of that fake news.

Scotland has outperformed WM, AGAIN, but thays down the priorities of the governments.  One supports and works for the people  the other supports and works for itself and the 1% who are driven purely by greed and money.  Cpuld and should they have done better.... yes, but again hindsight reveals this, the decisions on lockdown were made in good faith at the time as a 4 nation approach   unfortunately WM having all the main levers of power didnt follow the science, but followed Cummings wishes.  We live on an island  beyond repatriation and goods NO flights should have been coming in  and certainly not the hundreds a day from seriously infected regions which was the case.  Imo if Scotland had the control of their skies this wouldn't have happened in anything like the scale allowed by WM.

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7 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

The ONLY political leader on this island who has publically and constantly said they would make mistakes is the FM.  WM arrogance that they are totally right and if they're proven wrong they lie, publish bulls**t propaganda, misdirect and generally obsfucate to the point of disinterest amongst the public will not get around the facts.

Were mistakes made, yes but these only became visible with hindsight.  NS has also stated her thoughts and feeling of responsibility on the mistakes.

If anyone is  likely to learn from them and make different choices is the FM and Scottish GOVERNMENT( not the executive which didn't seem a freudian slip at all but an overtly political comment from you, apologies if you didnt mean it that way).  The UK govt will not learn as they simply beleive they are right about everything and then twist the facts and produce fake news to show them to be rights then forget about the creation of that fake news.

Scotland has outperformed WM, AGAIN, but thays down the priorities of the governments.  One supports and works for the people  the other supports and works for itself and the 1% who are driven purely by greed and money.  Cpuld and should they have done better.... yes, but again hindsight reveals this, the decisions on lockdown were made in good faith at the time as a 4 nation approach   unfortunately WM having all the main levers of power didnt follow the science, but followed Cummings wishes.  We live on an island  beyond repatriation and goods NO flights should have been coming in  and certainly not the hundreds a day from seriously infected regions which was the case.  Imo if Scotland had the control of their skies this wouldn't have happened in anything like the scale allowed by WM.

I wrote above:

The opinion poll is consistent with  "anything bad, London, anything good, Edinburgh" and I find this uncritical perspective worrying. This is not a party political point.

You make my point with great aplomb.

 

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1 hour ago, mackpomm said:

No more questions then Boris?

I am not trying to point the finger at any one sector or the Scottish executive. But it does seem that lots of mistakes have been made and the, often enforced, compromises chosen have not been good ones. Despite the headline death figures, I was not inferring Scotlands care homes had performed worst than their English counterparts.

But I think it is reasonable to ask if Scotland could have done things differently. It looks to me as if organisations have not been willing to take individual responsibility and certainly when challenged, do not regard themselves as accountable. The opinion poll is consistent with  "anything bad, London, anything good, Edinburgh" and I find this uncritical perspective worrying. This is not a party political point.

 

There should be plenty of questions. “Why were you taking more residents when you couldn’t look after the ones you already had?”, “why didn’t you provide adequate PPE for your staff?”, “why did you allow staff to work across multiple sites?”, “why didn’t you isolate patient who had come from hospitals?” Would be the most obvious ones to ask, but they should be directed at the private care sector rather than the Scottish government. 

Edited by Zorro

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21 minutes ago, Zorro said:

There should be plenty of questions. “Why were you taking more residents when you couldn’t look after the ones you already had?”, “why didn’t you provide adequate PPE for your staff?”, “why did you allow staff to work across multiple sites?”, “why didn’t you isolate patient who had come from hospitals?” Would be the most obvious ones to ask, but they should be directed at the private care sector rather than the Scottish government. 

Perhaps these are good questions but I can't share your enthusiasm for isolating blame with care homes some of whom may be guilty only of trying to cooperate as the whole system strained. Mistakes have been made across the board. If we don't identify the underlying problems, the lack of integration in primary health care services and discretionary use of public health advice by politicians, then next time around we'll be met with the same barrage of "it wisnae me".

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1 hour ago, mackpomm said:

I wrote above:

The opinion poll is consistent with  "anything bad, London, anything good, Edinburgh" and I find this uncritical perspective worrying. This is not a party political point.

You make my point with great aplomb.

 

Actually Inprovided you with some facts,  if they show London up to be a ckusterf**k of arrogant wanks who believe they are always right then I guess that's also the truth.

As for the lack of criticism point you make, you're having a f**king laugh right?  The broadcast media,  the written media are all owned by and work from a unionist perspective.   It's all constant do as you're told, london knows best, SNP baaad.

The FM has appeared at every single communication, takes questions from all angles which all say SNP baaad  and gives clear answers.  The BBC reporter yesterday was the first question up and its was a direct go at the stay at home message, designed to cause trouble and just generally be the total wankstain he is whe on good morning Scotland.

Theres been 1 or 2 days and the odd isolated event of criticism if the UK dueing live debate or 'news'broadcast reporting.  The FM takes that every single day and gives clear answers to it all.

You need to take yer head out of your arse if you think its otherwise.

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30 minutes ago, mackpomm said:

Perhaps these are good questions but I can't share your enthusiasm for isolating blame with care homes some of whom may be guilty only of trying to cooperate as the whole system strained. Mistakes have been made across the board. If we don't identify the underlying problems, the lack of integration in primary health care services and discretionary use of public health advice by politicians, then next time around we'll be met with the same barrage of "it wisnae me".

Look at my post,  and tell me whi is likely to listen and learn and who will simply bulls**t, bluster obsfucate and repeat their mistakes ad nauseam through sheer arrogance.

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32 minutes ago, mackpomm said:

Perhaps these are good questions but I can't share your enthusiasm for isolating blame with care homes some of whom may be guilty only of trying to cooperate as the whole system strained. Mistakes have been made across the board. If we don't identify the underlying problems, the lack of integration in primary health care services and discretionary use of public health advice by politicians, then next time around we'll be met with the same barrage of "it wisnae me".

The underlying problem is Margaret Thatcher privatised the care sector in 1990. The general population have been content for granny to wallow in substandard care since then, as long as their own taxes remained low enough so they could afford second holidays and big Tv’s. Those chickens have come home to roost. 
Suggestions on how you can change that mindset, so people elect governments, who prioritise healthcare over banking, would be welcome. However, if you just want someone to blame, go and have a good look in the mirror. 

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8 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

 The FM takes that every single day and gives clear answers to it all.

You need to take yer head out of your arse if you think its otherwise.

Is there a difference between saying you take responsibility and actually taking responsibility? I think both Boris and Nicola are a bit confused on this point.

Do you have to be quite so abusive?

Lick my head!

 

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In my view care homes everywhere have been on the receiving end of the misery caused by this virus. This is largely a result of all the really vulnerable people in society in one place. It was always going to happen this way but arguament about which administration has handled this worst are really pointless to me as nobody comes out of it well. 

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1 minute ago, gdevoy said:

In my view care homes everywhere have been on the receiving end of the misery caused by this virus. This is largely a result of all the really vulnerable people in society in one place. It was always going to happen this way but arguament about which administration has handled this worst are really pointless to me as nobody comes out of it well. 

Yup, I wholeheartedly agree and if any of my points suggest otherwise I withdraw them, with apologies.

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1 hour ago, Prahakillie said:

I'm amazed so many people think Boris is handling the crisis well.

It is only because most of them in England still think "immigrants" will be rounded up and put on cattle trucks at some future date post Brexit(to be determined).

When they realise that cheap immigrant-derived labour will still be the underpinning of the UK economy they will be encouraged by the media to focus their ire somewhere else - it wouldn't surprise me if it was on us over Indy etc.   

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