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'The Killie Boys' - Time to RIP?


Cill Mheàrnaig

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4 hours ago, NorfolkG said:

Cool. Limit comment. Sing it in Brixton next time you’re there, twirling your scarf.

From your earlier posts I really gave you more credit than the intelligence you now reveal. I would never dream of using that expression in Brixton - I’m assuming you are using Brixton due to the high level of black people that live there? If I used that expression when addressing a largely black audience, I should be arrested for being racist. If i sing those words - a weapon against our bitterest rivals - (very few of them are black) a clear reference - as explained by many posters so many times before -  to the lack of hygiene that we like to associate with our poor relations, I’m being a killie fan.  It’s about context and intent. Language is contextual. There is no black and white in that respect. To not see this is either ignorant or deliberately antagonistic. 

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4 hours ago, Iain Richardson said:

The big guy 68 thats how you feel no problem. Each to their own. Most important thing is the success of Killie football club 

Respect the view you state when put the way you do. I agree that there are elements of our song choice that when put under the microscope seems a little brutal. But it’s football, not ballet. Most of us come from working class lines. We are and never will be racist in any way. Nothing to be ashamed about. Keep supporting the club. Sing what you want and avoid what you don’t like. Cheers.

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4 hours ago, Cill Mheàrnaig said:

If one black person took offence to what was being sung, and even after it was explained to them how it's viewed by some in Ayrshire was still offended or didn't understand why it was being sung - you'd be okay with that because it wasn't intended to be racist?

100%. This apologetic culture for stuff we didn’t mean is driving the sport and the country into despair. iTS ABOUT INTENT. Good people should not be made to feel marginalised in this way. Take time to educate folks on the true meaning.

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4 minutes ago, Thebigguy68 said:

From your earlier posts I really gave you more credit than the intelligence you now reveal. I would never dream of using that expression in Brixton - I’m assuming you are using Brixton due to the high level of black people that live there? If I used that expression when addressing a largely black audience, I should be arrested for being racist. If i sing those words - a weapon against our bitterest rivals - (very few of them are black) a clear reference - as explained by many posters so many times before -  to the lack of hygiene that we like to associate with our poor relations, I’m being a killie fan.  It’s about context and intent. Language is contextual. There is no black and white in that respect. To not see this is either ignorant or deliberately antagonistic. 

Yes. Context is everything.

Sometimes it’s obvious to an observer; sometimes it’s not.

You can’t control how people perceive you when you sing that song. You can’t be sure Alex Dyer knows the background. Or Niko Hamalainen, hearing it on Saturday, having been here a week. Or that either of them would accept the really flimsy ‘yebbut it means dirty’ explanation. You can’t know how it being heard on SkySports in a pub in Brixton might be interpreted.

Intelligence is very different to common sense. 

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5 hours ago, Thebigguy68 said:

100%. This apologetic culture for stuff we didn’t mean is driving the sport and the country into despair. iTS ABOUT INTENT. Good people should not be made to feel marginalised in this way. Take time to educate folks on the true meaning.

Except...it's not about intent is it?

Whether we like it or not we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions.

I'm not even talking about other fans. If I'm bringing foreign family and friends along to support our family friendly and inclusive club, and I have to explain why singing "black b*stards" isn't racist....it's not exactly a good look for us

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I don't care what OF fans think of us, but I like my moral high ground when it comes to Killie being amongst the best family and community-orientated teams.

Especially when it comes to our portrayal in the media,.  Like it or not this is the national and even international view of our team - something we have taken great pains to increase positively in the last couple of years.  To go against this would be massively ignorant on our part, and disrespectful towards our own club.

 

The two songs in question - they are not racist, nor bigoted - but they are tired, outdated and are just sh!t by association - and there are clear associations, this is not some PC gone mad or snowflake culture thing - its common sense.

For "Killie Boys" lets not beat around the bush, we have copied despicable lyrics from the team we hate most, changed two f@cking words and expect not to be associated?

It's whataboutery on our part of the highest order to deny that, something we are happy to accuse OF fans of.  

Why don't we sing the same song, and change the "up to out knees" line entirely - other teams' fans sing the song - they (probably with the exception of Hearts) don't sing those lyrics. 

"We hate Ayr, black b@stards" is simple.  It's not racist, but language changes - can we not just change that line with it?

I think its time for us to wise up. You don't go into disciplinary action and say "but other folk do worse" its about you alone, and its up to us to apply common sense and change these two lyrics.

Even Sevco have issued a decent statement for once on it, albeit through gritted teeth.  You can be certain the SFA will be looking for scapegoats this season.

 

Edited by dasboag
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3 minutes ago, dasboag said:

I don't care what OF fans think of us, but I like my moral high ground when it comes to Killie being amongst the best family and community-orientated teams.

Especially when it comes to our portrayal in the media,.  Like it or not this is the national and even international view of our team - something we have taken great pains to increase positively in the last couple of years.  To go against this would be massively ignorant on our part, and disrespectful towards our own club.

 

The two songs in question - they are not racist, nor bigoted - but they are tired, outdated and are just sh!t by association - and there are clear associations, this is not some PC gone mad or snowflake culture thing - its common sense.

For "Killie Boys" lets not beat around the bush, we have copied despicable lyrics from the team we hate most, changed two f@cking words and expect not to be associated?

It's whataboutery on our part of the highest order to deny that, something we are happy to accuse OF fans of.  

Why don't we sing the same song, and change the "up to out knees" line entirely - other teams' fans sing the song - they (probably with the exception of Hearts) don't sing those lyrics. 

"We hate Ayr, black b@stards" is simple.  It's not racist, but language changes - can we not just change that line with it?

I think its time for us to wise up. You don't go into disciplinary action and say "but other folk do worse" its about you alone, and its up to us to apply common sense and change these two lyrics.

 

Good, balanced, argument. I still don’t accept we are doing anything wrong, so no need to defend our stance. If the majority of fans want change, let’s change. I’ll get on board. I’m personally happy where we are at.

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Never liked Hello Hello so don't usually bother with it other than to wind up the Sevconians, I can see both arguments and both hold water but ultimately it will only die out in time if it is replaced by something better and more unique...that's why a lot of the new songs the younger generation come up with catch on...need to get them to come up with something catchy, easy to learn and not so player specific as inevitably players move on...give us some new stuff and the old stuff will die out naturally.

That said, I was always wary of the "We Are Killie" line about black b**tards and sung black and white b**tards instead, as it was originally about their strip colour as well as being unclean. Didn't fit in well then, still doesn't now, so I'm happy to change one word to 'manky' and retake the moral high ground and also be able to demonstrate that we can manage ourselves and don't need UEFA or anyone else to tell us what we are allowed to be singing, plus it fits in fine. Looked up the dictionary definition of manky...not only does it mean "dirty and unpleasant" but also means "inferior, worthless" so technically twice as effective as our colloquial version of "black" and the only ones taking offence with be them doon the road its intended for.

The "MANKY" campaign starts here. Well it doesn't really, but that's what I'll be singing from now on...folk can make their own mind up though, at the end of the day its a no-brainer and easy enough to implement/remember.

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Hello, hello is a good rousing tune, but it makes us sound like like mini huns. “Surrender or you’ll die, up to our knees in peoples’ blood”. It’s not going to stop anytime soon. As to the others, it always makes me smile when anyone says ‘you can’t say anything anymore, PC gone mad”. No, to me it’s simply being a decent, responsible human being not singing about peodophiles, homophobic chants or black b@stards. Whatever the intent, 99.99% of the general population recognise it as one of the most common racial slurs. Apparently it’s been approved, though, as a couple of dozen drunk Killie fans asked a teenage black lad (William Gross) if he thought it was ok. Surprisingly the boy decided not to contradict them. As other people have said, some posters using exactly the same whataboutary as old scum fans, they just can’t see it. 

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3 minutes ago, baz said:

Never liked Hello Hello so don't usually bother with it other than to wind up the Sevconians, I can see both arguments and both hold water but ultimately it will only die out in time if it is replaced by something better and more unique...that's why a lot of the new songs the younger generation come up with catch on...need to get them to come up with something catchy, easy to learn and not so player specific as inevitably players move on...give us some new stuff and the old stuff will die out naturally.

That said, I was always wary of the "We Are Killie" line about black b**tards and sung black and white b**tards instead, as it was originally about their strip colour as well as being unclean. Didn't fit in well then, still doesn't now, so I'm happy to change one word to 'manky' and retake the moral high ground and also be able to demonstrate that we can manage ourselves and don't need UEFA or anyone else to tell us what we are allowed to be singing, plus it fits in fine. Looked up the dictionary definition of manky...not only does it mean "dirty and unpleasant" but also means "inferior, worthless" so technically twice as effective as our colloquial version of "black" and the only ones taking offence with be them doon the road its intended for.

The "MANKY" campaign starts here. Well it doesn't really, but that's what 'll be singing from now on...folk can make their own mind up though, at the end of the day its a no-brainer and easy enough to implement/remember.

Well said. Move with the times and show we are better :hurrah:

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3 minutes ago, baz said:

Never liked Hello Hello so don't usually bother with it other than to wind up the Sevconians, I can see both arguments and both hold water but ultimately it will only die out in time if it is replaced by something better and more unique...that's why a lot of the new songs the younger generation come up with catch on...need to get them to come up with something catchy, easy to learn and not so player specific as inevitably players move on...give us some new stuff and the old stuff will die out naturally.

That said, I was always wary of the "We Are Killie" line about black b**tards and sung black and white b**tards instead, as it was originally about their strip colour as well as being unclean. Didn't fit in well then, still doesn't now, so I'm happy to change one word to 'manky' and retake the moral high ground and also be able to demonstrate that we can manage ourselves and don't need UEFA or anyone else to tell us what we are allowed to be singing, plus it fits in fine. Looked up the dictionary definition of manky...not only does it mean "dirty and unpleasant" but also means "inferior, worthless" so technically twice as effective as our colloquial version of "black" and the only ones taking offence with be them doon the road its intended for.

The "MANKY" campaign starts here. Well it doesn't really, but that's what 'll be singing from now on...folk can make their own mind up though, at the end of the day its a no-brainer and easy enough to implement/remember.

A very sensible solution.

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I'm with @baz on this. Let's move forward and appear progressive rather than stuck in the past.

Nothing snowflake about wanting to better yourself. Nothing tough about clinging to the past. Nothing more frustrating and OF-esque than whitabootary.

If we truly believe that #wearekillie then we should embrace that we are different, better, and more open-minded than others who tend to think they are somehow unique, superior and narrow-minded.

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1 hour ago, Mclean07 said:

Hello, hello is a good rousing tune, but it makes us sound like like mini huns. “Surrender or you’ll die, up to our knees in peoples’ blood”. It’s not going to stop anytime soon. As to the others, it always makes me smile when anyone says ‘you can’t say anything anymore, PC gone mad”. No, to me it’s simply being a decent, responsible human being not singing about peodophiles, homophobic chants or black b@stards. Whatever the intent, 99.99% of the general population recognise it as one of the most common racial slurs. Apparently it’s been approved, though, as a couple of dozen drunk Killie fans asked a teenage black lad (William Gross) if he thought it was ok. Surprisingly the boy decided not to contradict them. As other people have said, some posters using exactly the same whataboutary as old scum fans, they just can’t see it. 

very well put

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1 hour ago, baz said:

Never liked Hello Hello so don't usually bother with it other than to wind up the Sevconians, I can see both arguments and both hold water but ultimately it will only die out in time if it is replaced by something better and more unique...that's why a lot of the new songs the younger generation come up with catch on...need to get them to come up with something catchy, easy to learn and not so player specific as inevitably players move on...give us some new stuff and the old stuff will die out naturally.

That said, I was always wary of the "We Are Killie" line about black b**tards and sung black and white b**tards instead, as it was originally about their strip colour as well as being unclean. Didn't fit in well then, still doesn't now, so I'm happy to change one word to 'manky' and retake the moral high ground and also be able to demonstrate that we can manage ourselves and don't need UEFA or anyone else to tell us what we are allowed to be singing, plus it fits in fine. Looked up the dictionary definition of manky...not only does it mean "dirty and unpleasant" but also means "inferior, worthless" so technically twice as effective as our colloquial version of "black" and the only ones taking offence with be them doon the road its intended for.

The "MANKY" campaign starts here. Well it doesn't really, but that's what I'll be singing from now on...folk can make their own mind up though, at the end of the day its a no-brainer and easy enough to implement/remember.

Good idea. Black means black wherever you come from. Not a bubble round ayrshire where black means dirty!!!!!! Would you call a black man from Ayr a Black bastard infront of Police officer? I guess not, so it's a racist comment 

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