Scooter Posted September 11, 2019 Report Share Posted September 11, 2019 https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m00084td/rise-of-the-nazis A history lesson in how a country sleepwalks to democracy dying from within and a tyrant comes to power. Here we are in the 1930's and a society is becoming divided. Did people see what was really happening? They probably thought that democracy was 'alive and well' with all the elections they were having. But they certainly couldn't tell what was going to happen. It's fascinating because we all know what happened afterward; between 1930 and 1933, it was the turning point in Germany and shows the political shenanigans that caused the decline and fall of a democracy and the rise of a fascist dictatorship. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Scooter said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m00084td/rise-of-the-nazis A history lesson in how a country sleepwalks to democracy dying from within and a tyrant comes to power. Here we are in the 1930's and a society is becoming divided. Did people see what was really happening? They probably thought that democracy was 'alive and well' with all the elections they were having. But they certainly couldn't tell what was going to happen. It's fascinating because we all know what happened afterward; between 1930 and 1933, it was the turning point in Germany and shows the political shenanigans that caused the decline and fall of a democracy and the rise of a fascist dictatorship. Watched the first episode (need to catch up on the second) it was a fascinating watch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdevoy Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 At the risk of invoking Goodwin's law (in relation to current events discussed in an 82 page thread nearby) I think there are a few lessons to be taken from Germany in the 1930's. a) A country in a state of economic dysfunction. b) A leader taking power on minority support. c) a noisy populist (nae furriners) group in the population d) An establishment who did not take him seriously because he was so clearly "an idiot" in their view. e) An executive who rubbished their countries own judiciary. It's all there if you look out the window. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted September 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 I did think about Godwin before posting, but that doesn't mean you can't learn lessons from history, if we are inclined to think critically about what actually happened here. Far right groups today largely don’t have a Nazi-like violent mass movement, and I don't thing the ruling class has quite reached a point of crisis where it wants to gamble on fascism. But we still need a strong front to stop tin-pot fascists we see before us, from harnessing populist anger and redirecting it to getting them into a position where they have any sort of governmental power. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdevoy Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, Scooter said: But we still need a strong front to stop tin-pot fascists we see before us, from harnessing populist anger and redirecting it to getting them into a position where they have any sort of governmental power. The current "Prime Minister" has no mandate from the UK electorate, not even close to a majority in the house of commons and has lost every vote he has so far brought in Parliament. He has only not faced a confidence motion because it suits the opposition not to have an election at this time. In any sane, rational, reasonable Prime Minister in that situation would do the sensible thing and resign. But the current incumbent is floating his own personal boat on a wave of populism. A people vs parliament agenda, despite the fact that it was the people who elected parliamentarians, unlike his own position. He even has one of his own Ministers and his "chief advisor" making the narrative the people vs the unelected judiciary. Despite the fact the judiciary are non-political appointed. The violence of the 1930's era in Germany is not there yet but if you look at the Operation Yellowhammer report you can see that it is not that far away. People don't believe it could "happen here", but I'll bet the Venezuelan people thought that very same thing 10 years ago. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted September 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 I'm not even thinking about our clownshoe incumbent PM. There is a tin-pot fascist outwith parliament who could conceivably gain power if the house of cards falls the wrong way. Someone who is close to political control, being taken seriously and nudging politicians to political extremes. Who would've thunk even 10 years ago that Russians could interfere in elections, or bots from St. Petersburg could disrupt democratic debate and get away with making things up that people would actually believe with any credibility? Who would've thunk up a world with Trumpet in the White House and Bozo in No.10, apart from Matt Groening of The Simpsons? We all think we're invulnerable to the collapse of democracy but if history tells us anything, complacency is our biggest enemy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAG Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Scooter said: Who would've thunk up a world with Trumpet in the White House and Bozo in No.10, apart from Matt Groening of The Simpsons? Ronald Reagan was a B list cowboy who went on to be American president, probably even more far out than Trump being in the White House. Fair enough Trump is first to go straight into politics at president, but he was host on TV on a voting gameshow, 'same difference' to most Americans who get their politics off the TV and is a huge history of TV debates deciding the US election. Trump also claims to be a successful businessman which a lot of presidents are too. BJ is an Etonian so is pre planned he ends up at number 10. What would be mad would be a woman in the White House or a Socialist UK PM. That'll never happen though.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted September 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 Episode 2 begins, "It's January 1933 and Germany has a new Chancellor. He refuses to engage in the boring day to day detail of running a country. He has no interest in the opinions of experts and refuses to read briefings. Instead, he tasks his team with a simple assignment ...destroy democracy and make him Dictator!" Chilling! Who else springs to mind when you read these lines? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAG Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scooter said: Episode 2 begins, "It's January 1933 and Germany has a new Chancellor.. Who else springs to mind when you read these lines? Not seen the documentary but should be said, reason W. Germany was so strong post WW2 was because of reparations post WW1 that brought Germany to its knees and led to rise of Hitler through the additional poverty that the great depression added to in the 30s. A lot of the rise of Hitler and fascists was the fault of the winners of WW1, who sought to cripple Germany and punish additional generations of Germans, in complete contrast to what happened after WW2 and led to a 'European piece' AKA the EU and ' A peace' quite like no other time in European history. Edited September 12, 2019 by RAG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killie billies pal Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 I visited the Topography of Terrors museum in Berlin last February, as I walked around reading all of the events I suddenly stopped and said to my wife, “holy s**t, it’s coming again”. Scarily similar yet we again have people standing still allowing it to happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdevoy Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, killie billies pal said: Scarily similar yet we again have people standing still allowing it to happen. I think the scary similarities are that both situations were / are fuelled by the irrationality of Nationalism and Exceptionalism. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, gdevoy said: I think the scary similarities are that both situations were / are fuelled by the irrationality of Nationalism and Exceptionalism. Spot on mate. They loved marching with flags as well and calling people traitors. Edited September 18, 2019 by Mclean07 -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker71 Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mclean07 said: Spot on mate. They loved marching with flags as well. To even contemplate linking the Yes movement with the evil of the third Reich is contemptible, even for you. You should be f**king ashamed. Especially give the senes below from supporters of your beloved union. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 You’re right with the above. In the end all nationalists, Scottish, British, German are the same. Glad I’m not a nationalist of any description! -4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker71 Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 Just now, Mclean07 said: You’re right with the above. In the end all nationalists, Scottish, British, German are the same. Glad I’m not a nationalist of any description! Wrong you're a british nationalist, you're just too blinkered to see it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, Beaker71 said: Wrong you're a british nationalist, you're just too blinkered to see it. Ok, thanks for letting me know. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdevoy Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 39 minutes ago, Mclean07 said: Spot on mate. They loved marching with flags as well and calling people traitors. I wonder who on earth you could be alluding to? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdevoy Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 34 minutes ago, Beaker71 said: To even contemplate linking the Yes movement with the evil of the third Reich is contemptible, even for you. You should be f**king ashamed. And that is exactly how the Brexiteers would respond to my original post. I think you'll find, just like the Brexiteers and the "Unionists" a goodly minority of the Nats fair enjoy a right good session of marching and flag waving and using words like collaborators and traitors for anybody who doesn't share their views. To try and deny that is wilful negligence. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, gdevoy said: And that is exactly how the Brexiteers would respond to my original post. I think you'll find, just like the Brexiteers and the "Unionists" a goodly minority of the Nats fair enjoy a right good session of marching and flag waving and using words like collaborators and traitors for anybody who doesn't share their views. To try and deny that is wilful negligence. Spot on again! -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker71 Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, gdevoy said: And that is exactly how the Brexiteers would respond to my original post. I think you'll find, just like the Brexiteers and the "Unionists" a goodly minority of the Nats fair enjoy a right good session of marching and flag waving and using words like collaborators and traitors for anybody who doesn't share their views. To try and deny that is wilful negligence. I never tried to deny it, but to try and allude that the yes movement is the same as the Nazi's is f**king offensive in thr extreme and borderline slanderous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby_Doo Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 On 9/12/2019 at 5:42 PM, RAG said: Ronald Reagan was a B list cowboy who went on to be American president, probably even more far out than Trump being in the White House. He had been Governor of California for years, so not exactly the same thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAG Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 31 minutes ago, Scooby_Doo said: He had been Governor of California for years, so not exactly the same thing. Regan never had a successful cut throat TV show based on viewers voting like Trump and a US presidential election is now a TV event more than a political one. Is all about adverts and TV shows, people in main don't attend rallies, even though they have crowds in 10's of thousands, is a country of 250 million. Arnie being California governor is probably more mental than either example - he's not even American. If Arnie hadn't been Austrian, you could have had Arnie v Trump at the last president race. That would have been completely nuts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 7 hours ago, Mclean07 said: Spot on mate. They loved marching with flags as well and calling people traitors. Was sure I spotted you at the weekend on the TV. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 7 hours ago, Mclean07 said: You’re right with the above. In the end all nationalists, Scottish, British, German are the same. Glad I’m not a nationalist of any description! I wouldn't say I am either. I do however want what's best for Scotland and we certainly don't get that as part of the UK. You evidently think we do, so fair enough. Can't sling mud at folk who voted for independence calling them all sorts in the process, yet not accept you are a British Nationalist in the very same way they are Scottish Nationalists (according to you) It's almost like you are ashamed to admit it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclean07 Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said: I wouldn't say I am either. I do however want what's best for Scotland and we certainly don't get that as part of the UK. You evidently think we do, so fair enough. Can't sling mud at folk who voted for independence calling them all sorts in the process, yet not accept you are a British Nationalist in the very same way they are Scottish Nationalists (according to you) It's almost like you are ashamed to admit it! Again, just your opinion, not fact. More is spent per head on Scottish people than nearly any other area of the UK. Scotland would have a huge deficit (accepted by the SNP leadership) if it went Indy, and it would cause massive austerity to reduce this to accept a EU rules. Sorry if I don’t want that for my people. I’m not a nationalist of any kind. Hate it. I’m one of those weirdos who think individual people matter, not where they were born. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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