Next Labour leader

[Beaker71]

25 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

I am not "siding" with the Tories because I see Indepebdence as a high risk strategy and think the risk diminishes as the percentage of the population who buy into it increases.

First if all what exactly do you mean by "independence". As an independent country we will still have mist of our trade with rUK. They are bigger than us and will set the rules. Unless we are part of a bigger trading organisation like ..... the EU. But some nationalists want nothing to do with the EU.

What about nukes? Some Nats want them iff iur soil as soon as. But allowing them to be parked at daslane could be a huge bargaining chip.

What about the oil? I'm guessing rum are not going to give that up so easily.

Independence will not be an easy path. There are many issues to resolve. But it may be that it us the only way Scotland can escape permanent right wing governments.

Nukes,   Englamd can park them right up their arse for all I care,  but not in Scotland. 

The EU, imo EFTA is a better option.

As for pur bigger party setting the trade rules, that may be, but england relies on Scotlands water and energy, so we have more than one card to play on that one.

Also when the reality of brexit and an NHS upon which the Yanks are let loose starts to bite then we may just need a massive border wall to keep them from running to join us.

[RAG]

20 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Nukes,   Englamd can park them right up their arse for all I care,  but not in Scotland. 

The EU, imo EFTA is a better option.

The nukes would be more of a risk to Scotland, somewhere unsafe in England they weren't designed to go.  Even if you got rid of the UK nuclear deterrent at the end if the designed lifespan, you can bet your boots the Americans would want to use the facilities - even if not for nukes.  It'll be a velvet ++ divorce if it ever happens for defence/geography reasons

[gdevoy]

Some interesting discussion on who the new labour leader should be on the BBC this morning.

1) Stephen Kinnock making the valid point that in order for Labour to get elected the "London Elite" socialists need to come to terms with how right wing the English working class is.

2) The notion was floated that Labour's fortunes would clearly pick up if the next party leader had 2 X chromosomes. Aye, because that really worked out well for the LibDems. 

3) There was absolutely no mention of the elephant in the room. Labour can win as many seats in the north of England as they like the y still cant form a majority government without winning a substantial number of seats in Scotland. And they have absolutely no idea there.  

[Squirrelhumper]

Labour up here are defo going to come out backing independence in one form or another soon judging by the noises over the weekend.

Hopefully they do and I might actually vote for them again!

[Zorro]

7 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Labour up here are defo going to come out backing independence in one form or another soon judging by the noises over the weekend.

Hopefully they do and I might actually vote for them again!

I’ve a feeling the plan is to float devo-max or federalism again. Come out strongly in favour of the Scottish people having the right to choose their constitutional future when they want. Then try and cut the legs from underneath the SNP with chat about the deficit or currency. 

[killie1961]

19 minutes ago, Zorro said:

I’ve a feeling the plan is to float devo-max or federalism again. Come out strongly in favour of the Scottish people having the right to choose their constitutional future when they want. Then try and cut the legs from underneath the SNP with chat about the deficit or currency. 

This would be interesting and could possibly get over the line with the majority of scottish people

[gdevoy]

1 hour ago, killie1961 said:

This would be interesting and could possibly get over the line with the majority of scottish people

The problem I have with the SNP is that nobody can tell me what I am voting for if I vote for "independence". Am I voting for machine gun turrets along a barbed wire fence where Hadrian's Wall used to be? I am certainly horrified at the prospect of my pension being paid in "Scottish Groats". And don't give me that s**t about how easy it would be to get a trade and currency deal with England because I have heard that s**t before from the Tories about the EU.

I really don't think there is any positive future for the country that was Scotland at the 1707 act of union in the 21st century. Just as I don't think there is any future in the world for the country that was the United Kingdom during the Reign of Queen Victoria in the 21st century either.

I am strongly in favour of Hollyrood having more authority over domestic issues like Tax, Welfare the NHS, and Transport. I still think there is a role for a UK wide position on foreign policy issues and defence. So if Labour could get their act together with some kind of federal proposal perhaps they could recover some ground from the SNP but lets face it, with the Corbynistas having such a stranglehold it aint gonna happen.

[Bhamkillieken]

15 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

The problem I have with the SNP is that nobody can tell me what I am voting for if I vote for "independence". Am I voting for machine gun turrets along a barbed wire fence where Hadrian's Wall used to be? I am certainly horrified at the prospect of my pension being paid in "Scottish Groats". And don't give me that s**t about how easy it would be to get a trade and currency deal with England because I have heard that s**t before from the Tories about the EU.

I really don't think there is any positive future for the country that was Scotland at the 1707 act of union in the 21st century. Just as I don't think there is any future in the world for the country that was the United Kingdom during the Reign of Queen Victoria in the 21st century either.

I am strongly in favour of Hollyrood having more authority over domestic issues like Tax, Welfare the NHS, and Transport. I still think there is a role for a UK wide position on foreign policy issues and defence. So if Labour could get their act together with some kind of federal proposal perhaps they could recover some ground from the SNP but lets face it, with the Corbynistas having such a stranglehold it aint gonna happen.

I don't see what tangible benefit there is from either Brexit or Scexit

[Squirrelhumper]

26 minutes ago, Bhamkillieken said:

I don't see what tangible benefit there is from Scexit

Not having a tory government would be a good start.

[Beaker71]

2 hours ago, killie1961 said:

This would be interesting and could possibly get over the line with the majority of scottish people

Before they lies again and take it off the table before proudly declaring the vow has been fulfilled by giving the scottish parliament control over issuing british passports in Scotland.

Absolute f**king conmerchants who promise the world in public and actively do the opposite in Private, this is twice they've done it.

[Bhamkillieken]

26 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Not having a tory government would be a good start.

you cant really go changing peoples sentences to start an argument!

[Zorro]

1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

The problem I have with the SNP is that nobody can tell me what I am voting for if I vote for "independence". Am I voting for machine gun turrets along a barbed wire fence where Hadrian's Wall used to be? I am certainly horrified at the prospect of my pension being paid in "Scottish Groats". And don't give me that s**t about how easy it would be to get a trade and currency deal with England because I have heard that s**t before from the Tories about the EU.

I really don't think there is any positive future for the country that was Scotland at the 1707 act of union in the 21st century. Just as I don't think there is any future in the world for the country that was the United Kingdom during the Reign of Queen Victoria in the 21st century either.

I am strongly in favour of Hollyrood having more authority over domestic issues like Tax, Welfare the NHS, and Transport. I still think there is a role for a UK wide position on foreign policy issues and defence. So if Labour could get their act together with some kind of federal proposal perhaps they could recover some ground from the SNP but lets face it, with the Corbynistas having such a stranglehold it aint gonna happen.

Why does the thought of being paid in Scottish Groats horrify you? Genuine question. 

As for a trade deal - the U.K. is in the process of bending over for the US. It hasn’t been made clear if they’re willing to use lube. The U.K. currently exports £49 billion in goods and services to the US. The rUK currently exports £52 billion to Scotland. My personal preference is to be good neighbours and allow them a trade deal. However if they want to play hardball I’m fine with that. But if they do, we should put a long term lease for Faslane and a couple of airbases on the table to the highest bidder. It might help focus their minds on how to be good neighbours  

 

[gdevoy]

7 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Why does the thought of being paid in Scottish Groats horrify you? Genuine question. 

Because I don't want to see my pension disappear in a puff of currency speculation. Creating a new Scottish currency is an insanely risky plan to deal with the Sterling issue.

9 minutes ago, Zorro said:

The U.K. currently exports £49 billion in goods and services to the US. The rUK currently exports £52 billion to Scotland.

And I think we all know who makes the rues in each of these situations.

10 minutes ago, Zorro said:

But if they do, we should put a long term lease for Faslane and a couple of airbases on the table to the highest bidder.

You see I see Faslane as a real asset in future trade negotiations. In the last Referendum I think we could have bargained Faslane against a currency union. But the purists wont hear of it. Independence means No Nukes! I don't think we will have that much latitude and will have ot make compromises. Letting Nato park submarines at Faslane is a high value asset to trade.

[Mcilroy56]

51 minutes ago, Bhamkillieken said:

you cant really go changing peoples sentences to start an argument!

He probably can if you consider that a vote for the Tories at the recent election was to all intents and purpose voting for Brexit. Scexit is a completely different argument.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Mcilroy56
Spelling

[Zorro]

2 hours ago, gdevoy said:

Because I don't want to see my pension disappear in a puff of currency speculation. Creating a new Scottish currency is an insanely risky plan to deal with the Sterling issue.

Currency speculation is not an issue which would be unique to a Scottish Groat. It can happen with any currency. Even sterling. 

2 hours ago, gdevoy said:

And I think we all know who makes the rues in each of these situations.

The customer is always right. 

2 hours ago, gdevoy said:

You see I see Faslane as a real asset in future trade negotiations. In the last Referendum I think we could have bargained Faslane against a currency union. But the purists wont hear of it. Independence means No Nukes! I don't think we will have that much latitude and will have ot make compromises. Letting Nato park submarines at Faslane is a high value asset to trade.

The fear of Russian submarines parked at Faslane should be enough to promote sensible discussion on issues like barbed wire fences and machine gun posts at Hadrian’s wall or a currency union during the early years of independence. 

[Squirrelhumper]

3 hours ago, Bhamkillieken said:

you cant really go changing peoples sentences to start an argument!

I wasn't arguing.

[EKX16]

Weren't we supposed to have federal powers 2 years after the 2014 Independence referendum. I'm also sure that a No vote would guarantee our place in the EU.

[Beaker71]

1 hour ago, EKX16 said:

Weren't we supposed to have federal powers 2 years after the 2014 Independence referendum. I'm also sure that a No vote would guarantee our place in the EU.

Heard the most ridiculous justification for the EU referendum not breaching the unionist promises of 2014 on the radio today....

some daft English muppet who is obviously military or married to military, said in 2013 call me Dave said he would have a referendum so you all knew!

she then went on to say that she had total faith in Bojo and that Douglas Ross was a superb MP!  And if Scotland was independent the RAF would strip Lossiemouth bare,  she then went on to say that the SNP has no mandate at all and they said once in a generation.

literally all complete horses**t, and delusional horses**t at that.  The next wee wifie who cam on was worse.  She said we would be left being defended by the Salvation Army,  then we had a belter from Falkirk who compared NS to f**king nick Griffin, at which point even Kaye Adam reacted with astonishment.

Honestly if this is the best argument for the yoonyim, then they’ve lost the argument before the debate begins.  Absolute nutjobs

[RAG]

5 hours ago, gdevoy said:

You see I see Faslane as a real asset in future trade negotiations. In the last Referendum I think we could have bargained Faslane against a currency union. But the purists wont hear of it. Independence means No Nukes! 

Impossible to do what you’re suggesting. Independence as negotiated in 2014 DID mean no nukes. Scotland was to be a new country and no new country can have nukes under international law. 
Ending the act of union, Scotland and England going their separate ways after 300 years, would not be the same situation - there’d be no ‘new’ country created at the end of political union in the UK.

Edited December 16, 2019 by RAG

[EKX16]

2 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

Heard the most ridiculous justification for the EU referendum not breaching the unionist promises of 2014 on the radio today....

some daft English muppet who is obviously military or married to military, said in 2013 call me Dave said he would have a referendum so you all knew!

she then went on to say that she had total faith in Bojo and that Douglas Ross was a superb MP!  And if Scotland was independent the RAF would strip Lossiemouth bare,  she then went on to say that the SNP has no mandate at all and they said once in a generation.

literally all complete horses**t, and delusional horses**t at that.  The next wee wifie who cam on was worse.  She said we would be left being defended by the Salvation Army,  then we had a belter from Falkirk who compared NS to f**king nick Griffin, at which point even Kaye Adam reacted with astonishment.

Honestly if this is the best argument for the yoonyim, then they’ve lost the argument before the debate begins.  Absolute nutjobs

I can't listen to politics on the radio it's bad for my windows. I'd end up throwing the feck*r through the window.

[chubbs]

28 minutes ago, EKX16 said:

I can't listen to politics on the radio it's bad for my windows. I'd end up throwing the feck*r through the window.

You REALLY don't want to do that in the car!!!

[Zorro]

14 hours ago, RAG said:

Impossible to do what you’re suggesting. Independence as negotiated in 2014 DID mean no nukes. Scotland was to be a new country and no new country can have nukes under international law. 
Ending the act of union, Scotland and England going their separate ways after 300 years, would not be the same situation - there’d be no ‘new’ country created at the end of political union in the UK.

I don’t think he’s suggesting Scotland would have nukes. I think the suggestion is that the rUK could lease a naval base here. The rUK would continue to have nukes. 
 

On a loosely connected issue, I was reading about the breakup of the Soviet Union the other day. Apparently so Russia could maintain their place as a permanent member of the UN Security Council (and presumably their nukes), the had to agree that they were the successor state and take on full responsibility for the full Soviet Union National debt. This meant all the nations which seceded from the union started of debt free.

[Prahakillie]

15 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

Honestly if this is the best argument for the yoonyim, then they’ve lost the argument before the debate begins.  Absolute nutjobs

The arguments don't really matter. This is 21st century politics. 

Got to come up with a good slogan. 

They've just won a referendum and an election which all logic would indicate they should lose. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Prahakillie

[Killiepies]

It won't matter who the leader of the Labour Party is Boris has now won the working class vote and Labour are to stuck in there principles they can't see the Englsh working class couldn't care less for the likes of Palestine ,imigrants and most of all the EU .When you get people staying in a bed sit and on zero hours contracts voting Tory ,then expecting Boris to sort it out says it all really.We are stuck with a Tory government for the considerable future with no credible opposition 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Killiepies

[Beaker71]

43 minutes ago, Killiepies said:

We are stuck with a Tory government for the considerable future with no credible opposition 

Only applies IN the union, come join us on the independence side and make IT happen.