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Time for Bowie to step up


drmurray

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21 minutes ago, Thebigguy68 said:

Knew that would come up. There are a few differences in our situation and certainly the financial reach of over 100,000 is a factor in this success. It’s doesnt really translate for us unfortunately. 

You advocate to pay transfer fee's and 'speculate to accumulate'. Just look at the many clubs that have gone out of business following this route.

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Just now, Skora11 said:

You advocate to pay transfer fee's and 'speculate to accumulate'. Just look at the many clubs that have gone out of business following this route.

That was reckless spending. We have to live within our means. It can be done well. Celtic are a good, relevant, example.

I can’t afford to buy my house upfront.  But I speculated and took a mortgage. I trust that I’ll manage my finances so that I can repay. s**t can happen and I could lose my job. But progress requires a degree of speculation. I’m simply advocating focussing on developing a leading scout network and placing some calculated bets on some young, emerging, talent using a portion of the extraordinary income received from GT. Selling Findlay down the line and investing a portion of this fee. Then Cameron, and so on. We can have good, hungry, talent driving the club forward whilst  balancing the books. This is only one part though.

 

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57 minutes ago, skygod said:

How was he doing that?

He was criticising those who don’t contribute. 

Saying that he was slating those who donate would be like blaming fans who attend matches for low gates! 

 

Apologies. 

I misread the part "Their(There) are a group of fans'

as TIK being" They are a group of fans"

I understand what he is saying now and totally agree with what he says. 

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1 hour ago, Thebigguy68 said:

Bowie has done a good job for the club. No question from me. He was the one that went on record saying he wants a league challenge though. This being the case ( or even if that means regularly challenging for Europe) we need a different approach to investment in the club. As you say, hearts and hibs will move forward. Simply having same approach to running the club as others will result in clubs with more direct resources finishing above us. We need to think differently from others to compete at high end. Radical approach.

I don’t know the detail (would love to) that you reference between TiK and others. I’m not sure a club that relies on this income has the basis for long term success. Fans should be that. Fans. The investment should be buying season tickets or match tickets. A scarf or hat. There should be no expectation of a fans investment beyond that. If others can and want to then do it, fine. Privately. I believe TiK has made an important contribution to the recent history of the club. Great. To draw a negative comparison with other clubs suggests an obligation for fans to “weigh in”. That heads in the direction of fan owned model. And that would would be end of any serious ambition for our club.

 

https://killietrust.killiefc.com/en/a-case-study_55893/

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1 hour ago, Thebigguy68 said:

Bowie has done a good job for the club. No question from me. He was the one that went on record saying he wants a league challenge though. This being the case ( or even if that means regularly challenging for Europe) we need a different approach to investment in the club. As you say, hearts and hibs will move forward. Simply having same approach to running the club as others will result in clubs with more direct resources finishing above us. We need to think differently from others to compete at high end. Radical approach.

I don’t know the detail (would love to) that you reference between TiK and others. I’m not sure a club that relies on this income has the basis for long term success. Fans should be that. Fans. The investment should be buying season tickets or match tickets. A scarf or hat. There should be no expectation of a fans investment beyond that. If others can and want to then do it, fine. Privately. I believe TiK has made an important contribution to the recent history of the club. Great. To draw a negative comparison with other clubs suggests an obligation for fans to “weigh in”. That heads in the direction of fan owned model. And that would would be end of any serious ambition for our club.

 

Fans complain about a lack of quality players, but do not contribute if they could contribute to the club, have no right to ask other people to keep putting in money, whether they are wealthy or not. 

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1 hour ago, Thebigguy68 said:

Bowie has done a good job for the club. No question from me. He was the one that went on record saying he wants a league challenge though. This being the case ( or even if that means regularly challenging for Europe) we need a different approach to investment in the club. As you say, hearts and hibs will move forward. Simply having same approach to running the club as others will result in clubs with more direct resources finishing above us. We need to think differently from others to compete at high end. Radical approach.

I don’t know the detail (would love to) that you reference between TiK and others. I’m not sure a club that relies on this income has the basis for long term success. Fans should be that. Fans. The investment should be buying season tickets or match tickets. A scarf or hat. There should be no expectation of a fans investment beyond that. If others can and want to then do it, fine. Privately. I believe TiK has made an important contribution to the recent history of the club. Great. To draw a negative comparison with other clubs suggests an obligation for fans to “weigh in”. That heads in the direction of fan owned model. And that would would be end of any serious ambition for our club.

 

I don’t think you get TiK or what it has done and can do for our club. I contribute but I don't want to own the club, just have a say in how it is run. If people can't contribute fair enough, but the fact that Motherwell and St. Mirren supporters are making our contribution look pathetic by comparison means that there must be something that Kilmarnock supporters don't understand or trust about the aims of TiK despite the best efforts of The Trust to explain the benefits it brings. 

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58 minutes ago, Mclean07 said:

Fans complain about a lack of quality players, but do not contribute if they could contribute to the club, have no right to ask other people to keep putting in money, whether they are wealthy or not. 

Absolute nonsense. It is not a fans obligation to find investment or creative thinking to move a club forward. Our investment is our entry fee and that provides the “ right” to challenge. Particularly when it’s a challenge that is not just moaning but comes with some positive suggestion.

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32 minutes ago, Wrangodog said:

I don’t think you get TiK or what it has done and can do for our club. I contribute but I don't want to own the club, just have a say in how it is run. If people can't contribute fair enough, but the fact that Motherwell and St. Mirren supporters are making our contribution look pathetic by comparison means that there must be something that Kilmarnock supporters don't understand or trust about the aims of TiK despite the best efforts of The Trust to explain the benefits it brings. 

Go on. Any contribution to the club helps. But it’s a drop in the ocean if we have ambition. This model is supportive to a smaller, community oriented club. I think that’s what many fans see killie as. I dont. We were third best team in Scotland last year. I think there is a bigger opportunity for us as European landscape changes. I’m not critical of TiK, I just don’t there is an obligation or reasonable expectation that this should be a major income stream for the club. The club being able to negotiate 2.2 million instead of 2 million for gt ( for example) would have a bigger impact that TiK could have over a year. Making paying fans feel inferior in some way to other clubs fans due to not contributing in this way is divisive and deflects activities away from the real priority focus.

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Keeper is struggling with goal kicks for some reason especially Saturday into the wind but we persisted with it which obviously should have had a plan b 

SOD I have been a big fan of him but it cant be denied his performances since being called up have been hot and cold at one point he looked either exhausted or disinterested 

Niko didn't like him to start but hes defo starting to grow on me so much I had him to score anytime on saturday I will forgive him missing a sitter 

Bruce is back up hes slow cant jump and runs away from a challenge rather than make on needs to be on the bench 

Del fabro looked solid beside findlay and thought we were onto a winner I like home 

Dicker / Power/ Makrini cant all play we need a creator makrini is best passer of the 3 but the other two compliment each other and were playing better when someone came and took the ball from them

Miller seems to fall over his own feet so wanted him to be wot we were told he was but hes been disappointing 

Burke gotta love the guy at his age he can still turn it on but lacks support 

McKenzie not the most talented but if 10 others in our colours showed his heart and will to do well we would be fantastic 

Brophy needs support hes trying but hes as frustrated as us wish he would lay it off now and then instead of shooting every chance he gets 

Our bench lacks strength sow , and the other striker (his name escapes me ) are not good enuf 

We need about 5 players in this next window with probably the same amount moving on fingers crossed Mr Fowler has a joker up his sleeve 

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48 minutes ago, Thebigguy68 said:

Go on. Any contribution to the club helps. But it’s a drop in the ocean if we have ambition. This model is supportive to a smaller, community oriented club. I think that’s what many fans see killie as. I dont. We were third best team in Scotland last year. I think there is a bigger opportunity for us as European landscape changes. I’m not critical of TiK, I just don’t there is an obligation or reasonable expectation that this should be a major income stream for the club. The club being able to negotiate 2.2 million instead of 2 million for gt ( for example) would have a bigger impact that TiK could have over a year. Making paying fans feel inferior in some way to other clubs fans due to not contributing in this way is divisive and deflects activities away from the real priority focus.

I'm sure you mean well, but your attitude and understanding is actually an impediment to the club and is also well out of date. 

What actual financial opportunities are you talking about that 3rd place in Scotland gets?  At a club with max 5k paying punters.  Our governing bodies hamper our earning power straight off the bat. You don't think that TiK is fit for purpose as an income stream for the club (which Motherwell and St Mirren have proven is nonsense) but you suggest absolutely NO way whatsoever to create income.  Absolutely none.

You can talk about your Greg Taylor math and you're not wrong, but that money will go straight to paying off debt and is also a one-off fee.  We aint getting that every year.  No-one in Scotland does.  But if TiK generated 150k a year (which is more than achievable) towards the running of the club that free's money up towards wages. Then we could sign these mythical players that get talked about here that are WAAAYYY out of our current budget.  

You don't want to pay, then fine, everyone's financial's are different, but at least come up with an alternative rather than complaining.  Right now you're just moaning about free (tax free may I add) extra income for the club.

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41 minutes ago, Thebigguy68 said:

Go on. Any contribution to the club helps. But it’s a drop in the ocean if we have ambition. This model is supportive to a smaller, community oriented club. I think that’s what many fans see killie as. I dont. We were third best team in Scotland last year. I think there is a bigger opportunity for us as European landscape changes. I’m not critical of TiK, I just don’t there is an obligation or reasonable expectation that this should be a major income stream for the club. The club being able to negotiate 2.2 million instead of 2 million for gt ( for example) would have a bigger impact that TiK could have over a year. Making paying fans feel inferior in some way to other clubs fans due to not contributing in this way is divisive and deflects activities away from the real priority focus.

Your argument would make sense if the 3rd place and European qualification (hah) had made a considerable difference to our season-ticket sales, but it didn't. Like it or not we are a smaller community orientated club, achieving 3rd last season hasn't altered that. Motherwell have almost 3,000 fans signed up to the 'Well Society, even at TiK's lowest monthly subscription of £10 per month that would be a not inconsiderable amount of £360,000 per annum which could be used to improve our club. 

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I stay away from the tv, papers, online after a bad Killie defeat as it's just too painful while some of the knee jerk stuff is unreadable. But this thread takes the cake.

I dont know Bowie and I've never met him, in fact the only thing I really know about him is that he has put us on the most secure financial footing we've had in 15 odd years. I dont personally agree with his stance on having a plastic pitch and his hire of AA seemed high risk. But to say he needs to 'step up' is ludicrous.

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4 hours ago, jmthmsn said:

Fans should be that. Fans. The investment should be buying season tickets or match tickets. A scarf or hat. There should be no expectation of a fans investment beyond that.

That's fair enough. People who donate to TiK are investors, not personal investors but part of a group.

The fact remains that a similar sized club in Motherwell seems to be obtaining a much larger financial contribution, which gives them a financial edge. Why is that? The answer given before was that they started from a position of crisis, and that we would respond in the same way in a crisis. But the donations (as far as I know) haven't dropped off as the crisis has passed.

And I'd like to think that by contributing to the Trust and increasing its shareholding, we can ensure that we never reach that critical stage.

 

 

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2 hours ago, CBFC said:

When he first came to the club that was his positon. Your sarcasm only exceeds your knowledge of our players...

So what your saying is we should try Rory upfront? Where he’s failed miserably any times he’s been tried there? f**k me. Your completely missing the point here. Arguing with me that Rory is a good footballer when A) he’s a pish winger and B) he’s not good enough to play in his “preferred position”.

Mind when we had good footballers like Jones and Stewart keeping him out the team whilst playing attractive attacking football? Good times. 

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2 hours ago, SaucyJackPirate said:

I'm sure you mean well, but your attitude and understanding is actually an impediment to the club and is also well out of date. 

What actual financial opportunities are you talking about that 3rd place in Scotland gets?  At a club with max 5k paying punters.  Our governing bodies hamper our earning power straight off the bat. You don't think that TiK is fit for purpose as an income stream for the club (which Motherwell and St Mirren have proven is nonsense) but you suggest absolutely NO way whatsoever to create income.  Absolutely none.

You can talk about your Greg Taylor math and you're not wrong, but that money will go straight to paying off debt and is also a one-off fee.  We aint getting that every year.  No-one in Scotland does.  But if TiK generated 150k a year (which is more than achievable) towards the running of the club that free's money up towards wages. Then we could sign these mythical players that get talked about here that are WAAAYYY out of our current budget.  

You don't want to pay, then fine, everyone's financial's are different, but at least come up with an alternative rather than complaining.  Right now you're just moaning about free (tax free may I add) extra income for the club.

I do mean well. I’m not sure where my attitude and understanding is misplaced though. The GT money should not have been part of a budget or else our club IS being seriously mismanaged. This would have been speculation in the extreme. So, it’s an upside. It may well contribute to other costs and improve our margins of operation but it was not required to support our forecast spending, surely. As I’ve continually said, I’d advocate reinvestment of a relatively small portion of such an upside. I believe that with a better scouting network this is a scaleable and sustainable PART of a business model.

In terms of TiK, I understand many on here are vested in it. Good on you all. I have nothing but positive things to think of folks investing their cash in support of killie. Quite the reverse. What I’ve seen occurring here on many occasions however, is those that contribute, expressing dissapointment or worse with those that don’t and drawing reference ( as you do) with other supporters groups. This is unhealthy imo. It’s not the fans job to prop up one of Scotland’s major clubs.

 I’m guessing that in the case of motherwell and hearts, the embryo of their supporters investment was at point when they on their knees and very existence was questioned. It’s unsurprising to me at least that such causes a greater reaction from supporters and that once in folks tend to stay in. But I acknowledge Ive not looked at this and some of you folks can better explain the differences.

If killie were in dire need of money, I’d be the first in line. You’ll have to trust me on that. But to be a top club we need more, much more than fan donations. There are different approaches beyond the transfer approach advocated. Some are unpopular. Many I’ve raised before. Ground sharing with other football and rugby clubs.  Increasing young fan based through links with a national level gaming leagues in the morning before matches. Securing private funds to pay for players in the same way investors invest in property of buy paintings. Investors will invest in anything if the prospect of a return are good. I think in the future even the biggest clubs will De- risk on transfers by joining with private investors. Share risks and rewards. There are loads more ways the businesses consider to reduce costs and grow revenues. Many have challenges. The point is simply; keep doing what your doing but challenge the board to move the needle more significantly. I’m on your side, we just place a different priority on TiK.

 

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1 hour ago, skygod said:

That's fair enough. People who donate to TiK are investors, not personal investors but part of a group.

The fact remains that a similar sized club in Motherwell seems to be obtaining a much larger financial contribution, which gives them a financial edge. Why is that? The answer given before was that they started from a position of crisis, and that we would respond in the same way in a crisis. But the donations (as far as I know) haven't dropped off as the crisis has passed.

And I'd like to think that by contributing to the Trust and increasing its shareholding, we can ensure that we never reach that critical stage.

 

 

Missed this before last post. Agree. I think once in folks may stay in.

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50 minutes ago, Guff92 said:

So what your saying is we should try Rory upfront? Where he’s failed miserably any times he’s been tried there? f**k me. Your completely missing the point here. Arguing with me that Rory is a good footballer when A) he’s a pish winger and B) he’s not good enough to play in his “preferred position”.

Mind when we had good footballers like Jones and Stewart keeping him out the team whilst playing attractive attacking football? Good times. 

Hmmm. Let me clarify for you.

I never said we should try Rory up front. I said that was/is his preferred position. 

He is not a winger, and he will be the first to admit that. Jones is a winger. Different type of player. Stewart is very skilful and did well with us. However, his agent is selling him around as many clubs as he can to get his cut.

Rory is being asked to do a role which I happen to think he does very well. As I said before, it is not only what he does with the ball, but what he does when we don't have the ball where I see his contribution to the team.

And in order to repeat myself, I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it. His work rate on Saturday at Livi was far superior to Liam Miller. We constantly were shouting at Miller to track back. He didn't, leaving Hammy exposed.

Forums are about opinions. we will not all agree.

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