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piffer

Alex Dyer Megathread™

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It's reported that the SFA and SPFL will apply for permission to restart training on 10 June.

 

 

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5 hours ago, trenwick said:

so we gave the job to dyer

i guess pochettino knocked it back.... 

an easy appointment as bowie knows dyer wont be banging door looking for backing in transfer window like a manager freshly appointed. going down the loan route again, just a thot does the transfer window move to coincide with when football starts again 

Yep - Makes life easy for them. Clueless from top to bottom. Seems he will win over the fans by playing whatever is deemed enjoyable to watch, even if we lose. Go figure

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18 hours ago, Killie alan said:

Look at Alex Ferguson at East Stirlingshire 

I think Alex Ferguson was in his mid-30s at that time and was moving up one division to St Mirren. He had also been identified already as someone with exceptional talent and was being recommended by Jock Stein. 
On the other hand, Dyer is in his mid-50s and his experience as a manager of a football club before being given the job at Killie was 2 months (April - May 2017) at Welling and literally days at Whitehawk in October 2017. I think he was in charge for a mere handful of games in total. If he hadn’t been SC’s assistant and had applied for the job at Killie then his application would have been rejected out of hand. Comparing Dyer to the most successful manager in British football ever is totally ridiculous. 
Meanwhile, someone like Tommy Wright is available - he has about 7 years experience at St Johnstone usually finishing in the top six and also winning the Scottish Cup on a lower budget than us - and we don’t even speak to him about the job. 
Locke, McCulloch and now Dyer - when will we ever learn? We haven’t even asked for applications for the job. Why is the board taking the lazy and probably the cheap option? 
At the one time in our recent history when there is no urgency and we can take our time and make an appointment we don’t even undertake a proper recruitment and selection process. This is massive failing by the board and sadly I think it will come back to haunt them. 
I sincerely hope Dyer does well but I think this is a massive gamble appointing someone with so little experience to work with a Director of Football who is in the same position. Results since December and the January transfer window don’t do much to back up his claim. Don’t be surprised if Fowler is the manger within a few months of the season starting. 

Edited by historyman

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15 hours ago, TroonKFC said:

For the life of me I really don’t know what ‘he knows how the club operates’ actually means in a results driven business. In fact this interview goes further and discusses the reserves and developing their own players.

No mention of the club informing 10 reserve players on Wednesday that furlough would not be extended and they would be leaving the club in 10 days time, with no support offered at all. This at a time when there are no clubs recruiting, no training facilities available and a lack of jobs everywhere, especially in Ayrshire. Some of these young players (age 18-20) have spent HALF their lives at the club, sacrificing their education, to pursue their dream. They surely deserve more consideration from a club who only recently at a Trust Event and Supporters Event boasted about being a community club and looking after the welfare of their young players. Maybe the club’s media silence on this decision, without so much as a thank you for the boys’ service, speaks volumes.

The club is PERFECTLY ENTITLED to get rid of these players who they consider not good enough. However furlough extension, even for a couple of months, costs the club NOTHING and would have been better than being dumped in the unemployment queue in the current unprecedented difficult climate.

A decision has been taken and for these Killie young players they will move on, but it could have been handled in a more respectful and dignified manner.

Here is a statement from the PFA on the actions of club’s such as Kilmarnock FC. 

“It has a been a hugely frustrating and worrying week for a lot of you regarding furlough extensions.

We share your frustrations at the reluctance of SOME clubs to extend furlough agreements for their out-of-contract players and have spent the week speaking with these clubs about the reasoning behind their decisions so we can try and find a solution.

Let’s be blunt, the clue is in the title – it is called the Job Retention Scheme because it is about keeping people in employment at a time of great uncertainty. That is what the government intended it for, it is written in black and white in the guidelines.

However, as often happens in football, one club gets cold feet and scaremongers others in to following suit. It is quite staggering.

As you know, our specialist employment lawyer has stated that “it is my very firm view that not only does the Guidance permit such extensions, but it encourages them since the Scheme is a blunt one with an overall objective of keeping employees in work.”

This has been affirmed by a number of lawyers and HR departments at clubs throughout the SPFL who HAVE extended their players furlough contracts. We thank these clubs for their co-operation and for looking after our members.

Unfortunately, there are some clubs who are still digging their heels in, but rest assured that we are NOT giving up the fight. Please do not think that because we are not shouting about this in the media that we are not doing anything about it.

We are speaking to clubs on a daily basis and have even managed to change the mindset of some of them, who will now continue to furlough their out of contract players.

We are also actively speaking to the Government, HMRC, MSPs, the governing bodies and lawyers (both ours and others) and are continuing to push for this on your behalf.

Hopefully we can get some form of comfort that we can take to reluctant clubs which will let them change their minds.

We know this is a worrying and upsetting time, but as soon as we have any news we will let you know.“
 

 

Shocking decision. 
So much for being a community club. They could have retained all of these boys for a few months so they could have received some income at least in the interim period. It’s going to be hard enough for them to secure any employment either inside or outside football.  

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17 hours ago, Bbk said:

Totally agree with the above post how many of us can honestly say we enjoyed what we were seeing on the park from someone who let us not forget was supposedly used to working in a lot higher company than the spfl with supposed high quality contacts I'm sorry but I didn't see his influence in any of our games even taking into account he was working with more 'inferior' players I worried when I saw power,dicker and o'Donnell running over to the technical area and having discussions with Dyer in the first few home games because they all knew AA's tactics were s*** and there is only one man at rugby park who really knows why AA was dumped and he isn't telling!

If they ran over to Dyer for instructions then they were making a mistake. I sat behind the dugout at St Mirren and it was a complete shambles. He sent on substitutes with no instructions whatsoever. None of the players seemed to know their job to the extent that the team didn’t even know who was to be left up the park when we were defending  corners.

Edited by historyman

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14 hours ago, skygod said:

It's reported that the SFA and SPFL will apply for permission to restart training on 10 June.

 

 

What's the point in training without a start date and a plan on how we start the season (behind close doors/crowds etc). As soon as we start training the club has to recall all players from furlough and start paying them.

Can Scottish clubs afford to start training without a plan on how clubs raise capital?

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On 5/24/2020 at 8:23 AM, historyman said:

Shocking decision. 
So much for being a community club. They could have retained all of these boys for a few months so they could have received some income at least in the interim period. It’s going to be hard enough for them to secure any employment either inside or outside football.  

When SOD was on the radio with Richard Foster a couple of weeks ago, it was pretty obvious he would not be resigning with us. However, one interesting thing he mentioned was that he had suggested to the club that the money saved from his wages could be used to secure the futures of "the younger players".

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14 minutes ago, DuncanEwart said:

.....one interesting thing he mentioned was that he had suggested to the club that the money saved from his wages could be used to secure the futures of "the younger players".

With his SPFA rep's hat on, no doubt. 

 

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On 5/24/2020 at 8:23 AM, historyman said:

Shocking decision. 
So much for being a community club. They could have retained all of these boys for a few months so they could have received some income at least in the interim period. It’s going to be hard enough for them to secure any employment either inside or outside football.  

It was reported on Sportsound that the clubs have been given advice that keeping players on solely for that reason could result in money being due back to hmrc as that is not what the money is for. The situation seems to be unclear. I've seen a few chairmen saying they are unsure about the rules. 

(not excusing the club - other clubs seem to have chanced it - but that's what was reported) 

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On 5/24/2020 at 8:01 AM, historyman said:

At the one time in our recent history when there is no urgency and we can take our time and make an appointment

A global pandemic where the club can't even meet prospective candidates face to face, a new manager couldn't meet the players and we don't even know when the league is going to start? 

I agree with your comments on Dyer, but surely a bit of continuity is precisely what is required in this situation? 

I think there's every chance we might not even have relegation this season. Dyer is relatively low risk in my opinion given all that is going on. "Next season" is really 2021 for Scottish clubs I think - what we are about to embark on is something very strange and potentially stop start. 

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1 hour ago, mitch14 said:

It was reported on Sportsound that the clubs have been given advice that keeping players on solely for that reason could result in money being due back to hmrc as that is not what the money is for. The situation seems to be unclear. I've seen a few chairmen saying they are unsure about the rules. 

(not excusing the club - other clubs seem to have chanced it - but that's what was reported) 

There are over 6 million furloughed in the UK. I would say any HMRC audit would be a fairly light one to say the least. 
these young players will be on pennies - we should have retained them. 

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Just now, historyman said:

There are over 6 million furloughed in the UK. I would say any HMRC audit would be a fairly light one to say the least. 
these young players will be on pennies - we should have retained them. 

The only time a player should be retained is when the club deem them good enough to play for the first team in the future.

Always been that way.

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1 hour ago, mitch14 said:

A global pandemic where the club can't even meet prospective candidates face to face, a new manager couldn't meet the players and we don't even know when the league is going to start? 

I agree with your comments on Dyer, but surely a bit of continuity is precisely what is required in this situation? 

I think there's every chance we might not even have relegation this season. Dyer is relatively low risk in my opinion given all that is going on. "Next season" is really 2021 for Scottish clubs I think - what we are about to embark on is something very strange and potentially stop start. 

None of that would have prevented advertising the role and starting the selection process. Yet again we haven’t conducted a proper search for a new manager. Why wouldn’t the club want to get the best person they possibly can? Is it because the only decent manager they have appointed in recent years was handed to them on a plate and they are scared they make a mess of it again? 
If there will be no relegation next season that would be the perfect opportunity to get a new manager and give him time. I just don’t think Dyer has the experience and ability to take the team forward. 

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7 hours ago, historyman said:

None of that would have prevented advertising the role and starting the selection process. 

It seems to me that it would. I'm genuinely interested if posters think I've got this way wrong, but look at the practicalities - 

I can't imagine any manager based outside of Scotland would want to move away from family and presumably come live in the hotel for a while mid pandemic. It definitely couldn't be someone who doesn't live in the UK. 

I can't imagine any manager with a family is keen to move with all that is going on and the uncertainty over schooling etc. 

One of our most likely sources of manager would be from England. Those leagues are going to play on and not finish until late July - so we are cutting down our list of potential managers. 

The training proposal is a phased return, so a new manager would have to meet and assess the players bit by bit. They won't get a friendly to see them in action and likely won't meet the squad as a whole until a few weeks before the season actually starts. 

That means they can't properly assess the squad until very late in the window while other clubs will be doing business. 

I suppose it might work with a Scottish manager who has a fair idea of our squad - but I don't see any candidates there who the fans would want, particularly if we've been given an indication that Wright is off to be national boss and Holt is staying put. 

Am I wrong in all that? I just can't see how it would work. And I was fully in favour of there being a recruitment process and not just handing it to Dyer - but I really can't see another way. 

 

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Starting a recruitment process doesn’t mean making an offer. It means seeing who is available, ruling people out and establishing who is interested and hopefully coming up with a short list to explore in more detail. All of that could be achieved without meeting anyone face to face and I expect we would have been able to have done that on a face to face basis in the next few weeks. 
Do we know that Wright and Holt wouldn’t be interested? Have we spoken to either of them? I don’t think we have so it appears that we haven’t even considered them at all. And, of course, we have appointed a manager who doesn’t live in Scotland. 
My point is that we made no attempt to seek applications and consider anyone apart from Dyer. That doesn’t look like me to a board trying to do the best for the club and trying to find the best person for the job. It was Hobson’s choice and that was a lazy and unimaginative approach to probably the most important task they will have all season. 

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@mitch14 your not wrong with what you’ve stated. My only concern is AA was sacked six months ago. We didn’t go into full scale lockdown until March. The club had four months or so to start the recruitment process and didn’t. By the looks of it there has been no intention of appointing anyone other than Dyer. The pandemic makes it a more straightforward appointment for the reasons you say but it’s not why we are appointing him.

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@historyman and @piffer

Yes, I don't disagree. I'm just looking at it as two stages - 

Stage one, Dyer shouldn't necessarily just have been given the job. The club and the players want him, and that should be respected, but I still wanted a recruitment process to see who was out there. 

I suppose to be fair to the club they were still leaving a bit of wriggle room by waiting until the end of the season. The performances in the remaining games could have finished him or could have left us feeling more positive - we'll never know. I suspect things would only have changed if he had lost all or most of those games 

But I agree and I'm not filled with confidence by them essentially making up their mind so early. 

Stage two - the pandemic and lockdown hit. And very suddenly. Remember this all accelerated so quick that we were still due to play St Mirren a day before that game, which seems insane now. 

In the situation we are in now I'm happy with the appointment and don't feel that that (this isn't directed at either of you) some of the anger/bitterness is helpful. Some of it seems over the top to me. 

My view is that we have a manger who is liked and respected by the players, keeping that manager doubtless helped a number of those players to stay and we have a stronger core of players left than I expected. All the clubs are now in a massive fight to survive and fans and clubs need to pull together.

 

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On reflection the decision was effectively made as many thought on or before the 26th Feb at the AGM when Bowie put his cards on the table. That basically ruled out a proper recruitment process and it was potentially all about timing to announce Dyer from then in. 

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4 hours ago, piffer said:

On reflection...

"On reflection"? Bowie was absolutely clear that Dyer would be manager if he wanted to be. Not sure why people are surprised.

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12 hours ago, mitch14 said:

It seems to me that it would. I'm genuinely interested if posters think I've got this way wrong, but look at the practicalities - 

I can't imagine any manager based outside of Scotland would want to move away from family and presumably come live in the hotel for a while mid pandemic. It definitely couldn't be someone who doesn't live in the UK. 

I can't imagine any manager with a family is keen to move with all that is going on and the uncertainty over schooling etc. 

One of our most likely sources of manager would be from England. Those leagues are going to play on and not finish until late July - so we are cutting down our list of potential managers. 

The training proposal is a phased return, so a new manager would have to meet and assess the players bit by bit. They won't get a friendly to see them in action and likely won't meet the squad as a whole until a few weeks before the season actually starts. 

That means they can't properly assess the squad until very late in the window while other clubs will be doing business. 

I suppose it might work with a Scottish manager who has a fair idea of our squad - but I don't see any candidates there who the fans would want, particularly if we've been given an indication that Wright is off to be national boss and Holt is staying put. 

Am I wrong in all that? I just can't see how it would work. And I was fully in favour of there being a recruitment process and not just handing it to Dyer - but I really can't see another way. 

 

All good points, Dyer is the practical choice for now. I might not like it, but it makes sense

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