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Wrangodog

Escrow Account

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It was mentioned at the meeting in the Crown that the Supporters Association were looking into this as a lever to removing MJ. Any update on how this is progressing ? I would imagine that the biggest problem would be making this a joint account for all like-minded supporters to pay into although individual supporters setting up their own  escrow accounts might be easier to arrange but not so effective.

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I couldn't make the meeting on Tuesday but as i feared after looking into it myself, the Escrow account is a non starter. 

I do believe the SA have an alternative but i'll let them release details in due course. 

We need to look at Season Ticket money ASAP. The longer we leave it, the harder it is to mobilise. 

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Aye. Based on the small amount of reading I've done on it just looks like a legal minefield.  I don't think too many people will pay into an escrow account unless their money is well protected or the campaign has a well respected figurehead.

We'd probably need to pay a small fortune to a lawyer/specialist company to put the agreement in place, or use a crowd funding company (it probably breaches their T&Cs) and pay them commission on any money lodged.

I've given up looking because I don't speak lawyer.  Hopefully the SA have better minds than mines and have something up their sleeve.

Edited by undefined

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1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I couldn't make the meeting on Tuesday but as i feared after looking into it myself, the Escrow account is a non starter. 

I do believe the SA have an alternative but i'll let them release details in due course. 

We need to look at Season Ticket money ASAP. The longer we leave it, the harder it is to mobilise. 

Exactly, we have 4/5 months or so before new seasons tickets will be available for purchase so we need to move on it.

If the SA have an alternative Hopefully said details come out quickly.

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5 hours ago, undefined said:

Aye. Based on the small amount of reading I've done on it just looks like a legal minefield.  I don't think too many people will pay into an escrow account unless their money is well protected or the campaign has a well respected figurehead.

We'd probably need to pay a small fortune to a lawyer/specialist company to put the agreement in place, or use a crowd funding company (it probably breaches their T&Cs) and pay them commission on any money lodged.

I've given up looking because I don't speak lawyer.  Hopefully the SA have better minds than mines and have something up their sleeve.

Escrow accounts need to be established properly so that investors are protected. However, it need not be that difficult or complex. I have put several in place at work in recent years and would be more than happy to use that experience to help avoid legal and other fees. Essentially the funds are held by a bank who would charge a small fee for doing so and the rules for withdrawing the funds would be very strictly set out. Either KFC could have that right if they meet certain conditions (e.g. resignation of MJ from the Board and all roles within the club) in order to issue season tickets to the named investors or, much more likely in this case in order to be acceptable to investors, the investors themselves so that they can buy their season tickets. If the conditions are not met by a deadline, funds would be returned to the investors.

if the SA would like any help in this, let me know.

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The Law Society in England have more or less instructed their members not to get involved with Escrow accounts now. It is only a matter of time before Scotland follows suit if it has not done so already. One if the other issues is around Money Laundering. That is a minefield. The trustees of the account would also be required to be authorised to hold funds on behalf of others which involves legal obligations. I personally do not wish to be involved with an escrow account and I suspect many others do not wish to do so as well.

Jimmysuperscot, if you wish to go ahead, then please do so, but the KFCSA will not be involved with it.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, killieboy said:

surely some sort of Crowd funding site might be doable?

crowd funding is to raise money for something

 

The legal complexities of gathering money to be hold as a protest is a complete minefield as others have said. The only realisitc way to show protest is for ST not to be bought at all

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In simple terms I would trust the Trust. 

I would be prepared to give the money to the trust in return for the promise that the money will be returned to me by a certain date eg 15th July. 

If a couple of thousand fans do that then that should make the board finally sit up and take note. The Tust can tell the board that this is money that would normally all be coming into the club but won't be until he is gone. 

By the way, I don't know any of the guys who manage the Trust and I have never met them but from what I've seen they only have the interests of the club at heart and I'd trust them with my cash. 

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4 minutes ago, historyman said:

In simple terms I would trust the Trust. 

I would be prepared to give the money to the trust in return for the promise that the money will be returned to me by a certain date eg 15th July. 

If a couple of thousand fans do that then that should make the board finally sit up and take note. The Tust can tell the board that this is money that would normally all be coming into the club but won't be until he is gone. 

By the way, I don't know any of the guys who manage the Trust and I have never met them but from what I've seen they only have the interests of the club at heart and I'd trust them with my cash. 

The Trust would have to conform to the same regulations outlined above and as a Community Benefit Society would also have to justify any Scheme to the FCA. In terms of the practicalities, the Trust is operated by volunteers. I think it would be a big ask to keep track of who is putting money in and where it should be returned to within certain timescales.

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6 minutes ago, historyman said:

Simple database or spreadsheet?

Has to be a bit more than that, need a proper paper trail. I know that the trust directors are all busy juggling trust stuff with the other areas of their lives - how many other members / fans will volunteer to run with this? Also this will divert money from the Club (even if only temporarily). They will be all over any scheme looking for loopholes or issues, how long before legal action is threatened? Just look at the EGM request. Any scheme has to be spot on.

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How could the club instigate legal action over withholding money which is not due to them?

Its discretionary spend by the supporters which, by their own free will, is being held in a joint account.

 

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1 hour ago, killieboy said:

surely some sort of Crowd funding site might be doable?

Why not? We live in an age when a person can set up a crowd funding or just giving page on the web and within hours raise tens of thousands of pounds for a family she has never met from thousands of individuals she doesn't know. 

That can happen but we can't seem to set up a system where Killie fans can't pledge their season ticket money in advance somewhere?

In terms of who has the time and resources to do it, isn't this the perfect opportunity for one of these potential investors who are just waiting for MJ to go to make themselves known, get things started and get many of the fans behind them from the start?

Haven't some of them (McMail, Alexander I think) made their money in IT and Internet gambling? Given their background I would have thought that this was something they could easily make happen. 

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15 minutes ago, skygod said:

How could the club instigate legal action over withholding money which is not due to them?

Its discretionary spend by the supporters which, by their own free will, is being held in a joint account.

 

somebody spoke about the club being able to access the money if certain criteria was met. Also won't be the first time the Club has questioned an organisation's or an individual's legitimacy to carry out actions. Fans will start to think twice if doubts are cast over the abilities of whoever takes on the escrow account. I can see why some want this to happen but I personally see too many obstacles. Can't we take responsibility for our own actions and just not buy a season ticket? The Club will soon get the message.

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43 minutes ago, Island Girl said:

somebody spoke about the club being able to access the money if certain criteria was met. Also won't be the first time the Club has questioned an organisation's or an individual's legitimacy to carry out actions. Fans will start to think twice if doubts are cast over the abilities of whoever takes on the escrow account. I can see why some want this to happen but I personally see too many obstacles. Can't we take responsibility for our own actions and just not buy a season ticket? The Club will soon get the message.

I'm not sure of what problems there may be but the supporters association have a good legal expert on committee so perhaps he can give guidance. I would be more than happy to get involved with record keeping/spreadsheets etc if legalities are sorted out (if required). But surely we can set up a "club or association" account and give it a suitable name, and make up our own rules and regulations. MJ can f**k off if he starts his usual bulls**t as he has no right to interfere in another organisation's financial affairs. But let's get it sorted asap

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Could the Trust not act as a middle man for season ticket purchases? 

Fan deposit the ticket cost in a Trust account and when the conditions are met they purchase the tickets for their members. If the conditions are not met the money is refunded.

Its not a conventional way of buying season tickets but would the club refuse to deal with the Trust if there were 500 season tickets at stake?

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12 hours ago, CBFC said:

The Law Society in England have more or less instructed their members not to get involved with Escrow accounts now. It is only a matter of time before Scotland follows suit if it has not done so already. One if the other issues is around Money Laundering. That is a minefield. The trustees of the account would also be required to be authorised to hold funds on behalf of others which involves legal obligations. I personally do not wish to be involved with an escrow account and I suspect many others do not wish to do so as well.

Jimmysuperscot, if you wish to go ahead, then please do so, but the KFCSA will not be involved with it.

 

 

Yes, any organisation holding money on behalf of others is probably subject to money laundering rules. However, that would be the bank holding the funds but they would probably want details of all depositors in order to comply with ML rules - that could probably be provided via an intermediary such as KFCSA. However, fully understand why you wouldn't want to get into that malarkey! As you say, law firms may also hold such funds - wasn't aware of the Law Society's warnings which might mess up conveyancing where they generally hold deposits in escrow until a house sale is completed (MJ would know of course!).

Was just offering to help to avoid having to pay fees to get it done which someone had highlighted as an obstacle - as based down in the South, probably not very well placed to lead anything though.

Edited by Jimmy Superscot
Addition

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10 hours ago, historyman said:

Why not? We live in an age when a person can set up a crowd funding or just giving page on the web and within hours raise tens of thousands of pounds for a family she has never met from thousands of individuals she doesn't know. 

That can happen but we can't seem to set up a system where Killie fans can't pledge their season ticket money in advance somewhere?

In terms of who has the time and resources to do it, isn't this the perfect opportunity for one of these potential investors who are just waiting for MJ to go to make themselves known, get things started and get many of the fans behind them from the start?

Haven't some of them (McMail, Alexander I think) made their money in IT and Internet gambling? Given their background I would have thought that this was something they could easily make happen. 

Think the issue is about getting the money back if the scheme fails more than anything else. I mean, if the club goes in to admin or MJ stays I think it is difficult to pay the crowd funding money back out

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As an alternative, why doesn't everyone who wants to with-hold season ticket money, complete a season ticket application, sign it, and give it to the KFCSA or Trust. They can then be collated and used as a bargaining tool, i.e. we have 1000 applications which will not be presented to the club unless MJ goes. No money transactions required until the terms are met and the season ticket applications are given to the club. You hold on to your own money until such time as the season ticket is bought.

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Like the recent petition, there would probably be people who don't even support Killie signing forms.

Or people who sign a piece of paper and buy a season ticket anyway.

Hard cash withheld is the only thing  which would have any impact.

The board hasn't even responded to the petition. The winter break was the obvious time to comment if they were going to.

Edited by skygod

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4 minutes ago, skygod said:

Like the recent petition, there would probably be people who don't even support Killie signing forms.

Or people who sign a piece of paper and buy a season ticket anyway.

Hard cash withheld is the only thing  which would have any impact.

The board hasn't even responded to the petition. The winter break was the obvious time to comment if they were going to.

Agreed that it has to be hard facts. I think we should be taking up Jimmy Superscots kind gesture though and take his help.

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21 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I couldn't make the meeting on Tuesday but as i feared after looking into it myself, the Escrow account is a non starter. 

I do believe the SA have an alternative but i'll let them release details in due course. 

We need to look at Season Ticket money ASAP. The longer we leave it, the harder it is to mobilise. 

On behalf of KFCSA many thanks to everyone for their helpful suggestions and comments - particularly the offers of help from JimmySuperscot and McIlroy

As SH has said the  Committee have agreed a (similar) alternative strategy which will be publicised in the next few days.

It is also hoped to again have volunteers at the next few home games and on supporters' buses gathering signatures, information, views etc

Watch this space and thanks again !

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I'd still ask JS for information on how he thinks this Escrow could work before totally dismissing it though. 

It is the most powerful tool. 300/400 adult fans actually putting money into a holding account (we've less than 1000 adult season ticket holders) is way more powerful than say 3,000 fans (many of whom will have no intention of following it through) signing foms to say they will pledge money.

The only language MJ speaks is cold, hard cash.

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13 hours ago, troonkilliefan said:

On behalf of KFCSA many thanks to everyone for their helpful suggestions and comments - particularly the offers of help from JimmySuperscot and McIlroy

As SH has said the  Committee have agreed a (similar) alternative strategy which will be publicised in the next few days.

It is also hoped to again have volunteers at the next few home games and on supporters' buses gathering signatures, information, views etc

Watch this space and thanks again !

OK, thanks for the update, I look forward to seeing the details.

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