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16 minutes ago, Zorro said:

However, if you just want someone to blame, go and have a good look in the mirror. 

The mirror said it wisnae me too. But when did my eyes get so baggy, that's what I'd really like to know....

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Uk and Scottish governments both have failed as I would have expected , miserably , the thing I despise most is the pure f**king lies they all tell 

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18 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

In my view care homes everywhere have been on the receiving end of the misery caused by this virus. This is largely a result of all the really vulnerable people in society in one place. It was always going to happen this way but arguament about which administration has handled this worst are really pointless to me as nobody comes out of it well. 

Your first 2 sentences sums this up quite succinctly .

There is a difference between discharging elderly patients with incubating covid and for example norovirus/CDeficille . The former has a morbidity rate per 10k in double figures and the latter of under 2 .Even the best run and equipped care homes would struggle to cope with the former, the full ramifications of which were largely unknown hence the poor govt guidance . Although the abandoned care home in Spain should have given the authorities a heads up . 

Edited by Bonbon19

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11 minutes ago, DrewWylie said:

Uk and Scottish governments both have failed as I would have expected , miserably , the thing I despise most is the pure f**king lies they all tell 

I agree 100%

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10 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

Your first 2 sentences sums this up quite succinctly .

There is a difference between discharging elderly patients with incubating covid and for example norovirus/CDeficille . The former has a morbidity rate per 10k in double figures and the latter of under 2 .Even the best run and equipped care homes would struggle to cope with the former, the full ramifications of which were largely unknown hence the poor govt guidance . 

It has been an impossible situation.

One, albeit anecdotal point.....In my own experience Scottish hospitals will go to any lengths to avoid entering C.Difficile on a death certificate, despite repeated admission and no known acute cause. Care outcomes are being described and determined by the performance standards of management consultants, not clinical diagnosis. This holographic use of language has become increasingly prevalent throughout the NHS made worse by chronic underfunding. For Covid to be managed effectively across the system, trust in the quality of information must be shared across the health care sectors. I think that trust is lacking.

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11 hours ago, mackpomm said:

 Are we really so crass as to glory in Johnson's incompetence whilst our own old folks die, unremarked, in even greater (relative) numbers than in England? Shame on our frigging smugness.

I’d challenge you to provide a single example where I’ve ‘revelled in the glory’ of BoJo’s incompetence of this situation. You can look but it doesn’t f**king exist.  You might find a few posts where I had to reworded my initial l**ing Tory b*****d’s post for a family audience - but that would be true of most things I’d said or posted about the Tory party from about 1992-2020.  

As for ‘smugness’ I don’t think anyone is being ‘smug’ about the covid situation. What people don’t like, is being misled and constantly lied to - as seen in those polls.  BoJo has needlessly expended a whole whack of hard earned political capit over the covid and DC situation completely unnecessarily - that’s the opinion of DOZENS of Tory MPs - not just my own.

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1 hour ago, KenVaagen1984 said:

It is only because most of them in England still think "immigrants" will be rounded up and put on cattle trucks at some future date post Brexit(to be determined).

 

I suspect the reason Dougkas Ross finaly threw his toys out the pram was more to do with realising BoJo is going to shaft him on fishing than anything to do with him backing his entitled overprivelaged smug twt of an advisor.

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1 hour ago, RAG said:

I’d challenge you to provide a single example where I’ve ‘revelled in the glory’ of BoJo’s incompetence of this situation. You can look but it doesn’t f**king exist.  You might find a few posts where I had to reworded my initial l**ing Tory b*****d’s post for a family audience - but that would be true of most things I’d said or posted about the Tory party from about 1992-2020.  

As for ‘smugness’ I don’t think anyone is being ‘smug’ about the covid situation. What people don’t like, is being misled and constantly lied to - as seen in those polls.  BoJo has needlessly expended a whole whack of hard earned political capit over the covid and DC situation completely unnecessarily - that’s the opinion of DOZENS of Tory MPs - not just my own.

I detect you have taken offense, understandably so if my language seemed to be directed at you personally.

I was heartened to see Bojo's popularity in decline but was surprised at the high level of confidence of Scots in our government. 

My comments related to us, Scots folks generally, and the Scottish press for glorying in the Tory government's shortcomings whilst remaining relatively uncritical of Holyrood's failures. This is what I meant by smug, the willingness to leave the plank in our own eye. I simply found the contrast between English and Scottish confidence levels mystifying. I'm not trying to weasel out, my response was to the opinion poll, not to you. I used "we" and "our" not "you" and "your" throughout. We as Scots should be scrutinizing ourselves, our govt, our services more harshly than any underperformance we detect elsewhere.

I just don't think Westminster's failure is sufficient basis for believing the Scottish executive has been successful. And I think this will be a repeated theme in  both the ongoing management of Covid and any attempt to find a route to a viable independence.

 

Edited by mackpomm

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40 minutes ago, mackpomm said:

My comments related to us, Scots folks generally, and the Scottish press for glorying in the Tory government's shortcomings whilst remaining relatively uncritical of Holyrood's failures. This is what I meant by smug, the willingness to leave the plank in our own eye. I simply found the contrast between English and Scottish confidence levels mystifying. I'm not trying to weasel out, my response was to the opinion poll, not to you. We as Scots should be scrutinizing ourselves, our govt, our services more harshly than any underperformance we detect elsewhere.

I just don't think Westminster's failure is sufficient basis for believing the Scottish executive has been successful. And I think this will be a repeated theme in  both the ongoing management of Covid and any attempt to find a route to a viable independence.

Water off a ducks back man - you don’t need to bother about offending me!

What we should be aware of, is the balancing act between economy and health, in biggest recession in history of the UK.  A balancing act between death and total economic collapse  - which leads in itself, to more deaths. 

A ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ tightrope,  the Scots gov. simply does not have to walk. 

It’s beyond the brief of a devolved administration in the UK.  It’s easier for Sturgeon, (as I’ve posted before I may add)  to take a cautionary ‘health’ first approach to the covid situation.  85% of the economic levers in Scotland are still pulled by WM, the economy still very much WMs brief and as we all know, health is a devolved matter.  I’d also posted another poll before that one (I believe it’s on the BoJo thread)  which showed the almost overnight collapse of BoJo popularity and that of all Tory cabinet members - except the chancellor.  So we can probably park the ‘racist’ Brexit Britain chat - given that on a UK level, by far the most popular member of the gov isn’t white.

Independence simply isn’t gonna happen with covid about and bans on mass gatherings - although scrutiny of Tories and indeed the current SNP (check my opinions on the Salmond thread) shall continue.

On a personal level, I’ve been badly let down by the Scottish NHS  IMO.   Went for a CT scan in Febuary, was told hospital would contact me with results, didn’t receive any communication whatsoever.  Called my GP to get even a telephone consultation and was told that wouldn’t be happening either.  So while it’s important to focus on covid19, I can guarantee you more people will die of other health conditions, where treatment was stopped, than of covid19 itself.  I probably won’t be one of them as a medically unqualified receptionist was able to tell me, ‘nothing abnormal was observed’ - whatever that means.

Edited by RAG

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2 hours ago, gdevoy said:

In my view care homes everywhere have been on the receiving end of the misery caused by this virus. This is largely a result of all the really vulnerable people in society in one place. It was always going to happen this way but arguament about which administration has handled this worst are really pointless to me as nobody comes out of it well. 

Care home residents have been treated shabbily. Nothing new there tbh. However by allowing the private care sector to squirm out of their responsibilities to their staff and clients, you’re doing nothing to prevent this happening in the future. 

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1 hour ago, gdevoy said:

I suspect the reason Dougkas Ross finaly threw his toys out the pram was more to do with realising BoJo is going to shaft him on fishing than anything to do with him backing his entitled overprivelaged smug twt of an advisor.

And a small majority of 500

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36 minutes ago, RAG said:

Water off a ducks back man - you don’t need to bother about offending me!

What we should be aware of, is the balancing act between economy and health, in biggest recession in history of the UK.  A balancing act between death and total economic collapse  - which leads in itself, to more deaths. 

A ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ tightrope,  the Scots gov. simply does not have to walk. 

It’s beyond the brief of a devolved administration in the UK.  It’s easier for Sturgeon, (as I’ve posted before I may add)  to take a cautionary ‘health’ first approach to the covid situation.  85% of the economic levers in Scotland are still pulled by WM, the economy still very much WMs brief and as we all know, health is a devolved matter.  I’d also posted another poll before that one (I believe it’s on the BoJo thread)  which showed the almost overnight collapse of BoJo popularity and that of all Tory cabinet members - except the chancellor.  So we can probably park the ‘racist’ Brexit Britain chat - given that on a UK level, by far the most popular member of the gov isn’t white.

Independence simply isn’t gonna happen with covid about and bans on mass gatherings - although scrutiny of Tories and indeed the current SNP (check my opinions on the Salmond thread) shall continue.

On a personal level, I’ve been badly let down by the Scottish NHS  IMO.   Went for a CT scan in Febuary, was told hospital would contact me with results, didn’t receive any communication whatsoever.  Called my GP to get even a telephone consultation and was told that wouldn’t be happening either.  So while it’s important to focus on covid19, I can guarantee you more people will die of other health conditions, where treatment was stopped, than of covid19 itself.  I probably won’t be one of them as a medically unqualified receptionist was able to tell me, ‘nothing abnormal was observed’ - whatever that means.

Yup it's a difficult trade-off and in this instance I've got sympathy for those involved in making it. Deciding between one air sea rescue to some daftie in a yacht struggling in the Minch and 50 hip replacements or 20 open heart surgeries isn't a particularly visible political choice. But the ongoing death toll from Covid will be understood as an explicit trade against increased economic activity and likely become a very emotive topic. Made worst because the reduction in mortality amongst eg middle aged men of reducing long term unemployment is more difficult to quantify than the cost of a hip replacement. And in contrast the headline mortality from Covid will be known and newsworthy. I wonder if any of our politicians will face the problem head on and risk the chorus of complaint?

Nothing abnormal observed sounds good. Disappointing how many folks have had the same experience....with all the related anxiety.

 

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2 hours ago, mackpomm said:

. For Covid to be managed effectively across the system, trust in the quality of information must be shared across the health care sectors. I think that trust is lacking.

In my experience this is the problem between the primary , secondary and care sectors . I started in the primary care sector pre even LHCC’s where there was a disconnect , patchy cooperation and a degree of mistrust between them . CHP’s were an improvement as the chairs of all the professional committees got together regularly to discuss improving communications amongst a whole raft of interdependent ideas. I had hoped this had improved further as I have nothing but positive feedback from my experiences when gathering support when I was opening a new surgery . 

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7 hours ago, Zorro said:

Care home residents have been treated shabbily. 

You wont get any argyguament from me in that.

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8 hours ago, gdevoy said:

I suspect the reason Dougkas Ross finaly threw his toys out the pram was more to do with realising BoJo is going to shaft him on fishing than anything to do with him backing his entitled overprivelaged smug twt of an advisor.

Even Theresa May critcising Gollum now, going against the spirit of the Lockdown

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5 minutes ago, killie1961 said:

Even Theresa May critcising Gollum now, going against the spirit of the Lockdown

More noise from discontented back bench failures from the past. Time to move on. :)

 

 

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9 hours ago, mackpomm said:

Nothing abnormal observed sounds good. Disappointing how many folks have had the same experience....with all the related anxiety.

I'd been referred to the Royal Jubilee in Clydebank, which is it's own health board and a slightly weird set up - so I wouldn't take my experience as 'standard'. 

Indeed, the 'service' I received was spot on.  So much so, I was back in the car 60 seconds after my scan was scheduled to take place and got a scan within 3 weeks of referral.  They were 'reconfigured' for covid19 (I believe) days after.  

2 hours ago, killie1961 said:

Even Theresa May criticising Gollum now, going against the spirit of the Lockdown

Is unparalleled in modern UK history for a recent, former PM, to get involved in that way.  Maybe she was 'strong and steady' after all..

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No sign of our UK leader for two weeks apart from him coming on to defend his pal. And lo and behold when its pointed out to the govt, the death rate shown where covid19 on death certificate is 48k they finally show it. Where is Johnson each day? What's he doing all day?

UK now has worst death rate per million in the world apart from Belgium where there have been protests. Nothing here. Not a cheep in the media. I guarantee we wont be seeing the chart showing deaths per million again which appeared when inconvenient to show how badly we were doing in total deaths. 

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10 hours ago, Shropshire_killie said:

No sign of our UK leader for two weeks apart from him coming on to defend his pal. And lo and behold when its pointed out to the govt, the death rate shown where covid19 on death certificate is 48k they finally show it. Where is Johnson each day? What's he doing all day?

UK now has worst death rate per million in the world apart from Belgium where there have been protests. Nothing here. Not a cheep in the media. I guarantee we wont be seeing the chart showing deaths per million again which appeared when inconvenient to show how badly we were doing in total deaths. 

Anyone watched c4 Coronavius  Catastrophe who needs a public enquiry that Eton tosser did nothing for 12 days from Feb 15 Did not want be disturbed with his lover  him and his tory wasters should be held to account now

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11 hours ago, killie1961 said:

Anyone watched c4 Coronavius  Catastrophe who needs a public enquiry that Eton tosser did nothing for 12 days from Feb 15 Did not want be disturbed with his lover  him and his tory wasters should be held to account now

Watched him yesterday stand up and say the UK's world class test and trace system has been fully up and running since the 1st of June.

Meanwhile some medical bigwig declined to answer when asked about how many people tested were getting their results back in 24 hours.

Clusterf**k seems like high praise for the way Johnston's government has responded to the virus threat. Beaten into 2nd place in Europe by only Belgium for the highest mortality rate per million population. But the guy still has the lack of self awareness to stand up and say the UK's response has been super, brilliant, excellent, et., etc., etc.  

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1 hour ago, Shropshire_killie said:

20200608_122343.jpg

Despite what people say about it all being the political bubble, I think this decision will come back to haunt him.

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3 hours ago, gdevoy said:

Despite what people say about it all being the political bubble, I think this decision will come back to haunt him.

I hope also what haunts him, Hancock, Patel, Williamson, Raab is the thousands and thousands of avoidable deaths not forgetting "Dr" fecking Jenny Harries and the rest of the so called " experts" 

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