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Just catching up on some of yesterday’s games and saw Valverde's tackle in the Supercopa final. Morata through 1vs1 and Valverde comes from behind and wipes him out. Straight red. He was awarded man of the match. Simeone the opposition manager praised him for the tackle. Are you in favour of these tackles or against the dark arts. For me it’s something that has to be done. 
 

 

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17 minutes ago, Blackislekillie said:

Professional foul my hole. Cheating cnut.

If that was a killie player doing that to an opposition player in the dying moments of a Scottish cup final I highly doubt you would be saying that 

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Still never forgiven that wee rat Ole doing it to Rob Lee many moons ago. 

if it’s your player you are praising him all day long, especially if it wins the game.

Knowing Killie the other team would score the free kick and win. If memory serves I recall Leigh Griffiths doing that to us for hibs at RP and Celtic away when pasca got sent off. Probably many more. 

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11 hours ago, DuncD said:

If that was a killie player doing that to an opposition player in the dying moments of a Scottish cup final I highly doubt you would be saying that 

Nope. Would be a very hollow victory if we won a cup by cheating.

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2 hours ago, Blackislekillie said:

Nope. Would be a very hollow victory if we won a cup by cheating.

I would be surprised if many other fans agree with your opinion. Each to their own though. I would rather a trophy in the cabinet 

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6 hours ago, DuncD said:

I would be surprised if many other fans agree with your opinion. Each to their own though. I would rather a trophy in the cabinet 

I’m with you here. I’d probably be angry with a player for not making the choice. 

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21 hours ago, DuncD said:

If that was a killie player doing that to an opposition player in the dying moments of a Scottish cup final I highly doubt you would be saying that 

That's one scenario. 

What if it was in the first minute of the match and he left his team with ten men and they got thrashed? 

The laws of the game say that it’s DOGSO and the punishment is a free kick and a red card. You can only hope that the referee applies the law correctly. 

 

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1 hour ago, piffer said:

I’m with you here. I’d probably be angry with a player for not making the choice. 

Does it come down to choice or just reflex and instinct? Whatever it is I genuinely think it would always be a tainted trophy. 

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1 hour ago, skygod said:

That's one scenario. 

What if it was in the first minute of the match and he left his team with ten men and they got thrashed? 

The laws of the game say that it’s DOGSO and the punishment is a free kick and a red card. You can only hope that the referee applies the law correctly. 

 

Not in first minute no, that would be extremely poor game management. Only towards end of game when in lead. 

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12 minutes ago, Blackislekillie said:

Does it come down to choice or just reflex and instinct? Whatever it is I genuinely think it would always be a tainted trophy. 

Winners instinct for some and choice for others. They are the ones who automatically know it needs to be done where others might think about it too much and sometimes the chance has passed. Some of the most decorated players in the history of football would do exactly the same and some would do worse. I don’t think it taints the trophy at all. It’s not pretty but it’s part of the game. 

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2 hours ago, Blackislekillie said:

Does it come down to choice or just reflex and instinct? Whatever it is I genuinely think it would always be a tainted trophy. 

Difficult to conclude it was tainted.  Goalkeepers save one on ones, free kicks and penalties.

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On 1/14/2020 at 9:47 AM, Blackislekillie said:

Nope. Would be a very hollow victory if we won a cup by cheating.

So to take that to a conclusion - do you only want us to win a trophy if we do so without committing any intentional fouls at any stage of the competition? That seems naive at best

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On 1/14/2020 at 12:22 PM, DuncD said:

I would be surprised if many other fans agree with your opinion. Each to their own though. I would rather a trophy in the cabinet 

I'd much rather we won by a player taking one for team than by a player diving for a penalty.  

The foul is extremely cynical but it is not, in my opinion, cheating .... diving is quite frankly a scourge in the modern game and is indefensible.  I hate to see our players doing it never mind the opposition and it pisses me off when some fans try to defend it.

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1 hour ago, casual observer said:

So to take that to a conclusion - do you only want us to win a trophy if we do so without committing any intentional fouls at any stage of the competition? That seems naive at best

Intentional fouls, aka "professional" fouls, disgust me as much as diving, waving imaginary cards at the ref, rolling 6 times more than the width of the pitch when anyone looks at you, Derek McInnes, Jim Traynor, Adrian Durham and cold toast. So, yes. I would only really enjoy a trophy won fairly. 

 

Unless it was against the swarthy bastards from Doon the road, obvs. 

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1 hour ago, Blackislekillie said:

Unless it was against the swarthy bastards from Doon the road, obvs. 

So our insults against our southern neighbours are racist? 

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On 1/14/2020 at 9:47 AM, Blackislekillie said:

Nope. Would be a very hollow victory if we won a cup by cheating.

Killie v Falkirk, last game of the season 10 years ago, Killie need a point to stay up.

Twice James Fowler took a man out late in the game when they were breaking up the park and had a man over ( only 1 yellow card thankfully).

The years we have spent in the top flight since have not been tainted one bit.

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Willie Young for Arsenal against Paul Allen (West Ham) who just might have gone on to be the youngest ever scorer in an FA cup final. Think it was in 1980. Always remembered it because it was so cynical. Just picked up a yellow in those days as it was seen as just another foul. 

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12 hours ago, historyman said:

Willie Young for Arsenal against Paul Allen (West Ham) who just might have gone on to be the youngest ever scorer in an FA cup final. Think it was in 1980. Always remembered it because it was so cynical. Just picked up a yellow in those days as it was seen as just another foul. 

The story of professional fouls: from Willie Young to Federico Valverde

The red card shown to Valverde in the Spanish Supercopa can be traced back to a foul in the FA Cup final 40 years ago

When Atlético Madrid striker Álvaro Morata raced through on goal with a few minutes to play in the Spanish Supercopa final, the Real Madrid midfielder Federico Valverde knew what he had to do. Football constantly changes, but there is always room for classic s**thousery. “It was something that I should not have done,” said Valverde. “I apologised to Morata, but it was the only thing I could do because he’s a very fast player.”

Valverde’s tackle may not have been in the spirit of fair play, but it worked out well for his team. He was sent off immediately but, by taking out Morata, he helped his teammates stay in the game and play for penalties. Real Madrid went on to win the shootout and Atlético were left wondering what might have been. Not that their manager blamed Valverde. “I told him that he did what he had to do at that moment,” said Diego Simeone after the game.

Valverde’s lunging challenge brought to mind a similarly cynical foul made 40 years ago in an FA Cup final. That tackle denied a young player the chance to score a famous goal at Wembley and it also led to a change in the laws of the game that still stands today.

The 1980 FA Cup final was not going to script. West Ham, who were in the Second Division at the time, had taken an early lead through a rare Trevor Brooking header and Arsenal – who had seen off the might of Liverpool after four gruelling matches in the semi-finals – simply ran out of ideas. Then came the chance for West Ham to kill the game and add one last dollop of feelgood factor to the plot.

As an exhausted Arsenal side – playing their 67th match of the season – pushed for an unlikely equaliser, West Ham’s 17-year-old midfielder Paul Allen found himself through on goal with just Pat Jennings to beat. Allen, the youngest player to have played in the FA Cup final at the time, was about to complete his footballing fairytale. Yet Willie Young had other ideas.

Young had formed a fine centre-back partnership with David O’Leary at Arsenal, yet it would be fair to describe the hulking Scot as an uncompromising defender. And, as Allen raced towards the Arsenal goal in the 87th minute, Young chose to demonstrate his approach to the game.

“Paul was put through, about 20 yards outside the box,” recalled Young in Jon Spurling’s fine book Rebels for the Cause. “I had a split second to make up my mind. Either he would have most probably scored, or I had the chance to at least keep us in with a shout. So I thought: ‘Son, you’ve gotta go.’ I was a defender and I defended. It wasn’t a brutal foul. I just tapped his foot and he went down. Paul was very good about it and said: ‘I’d have done the same, big man.’ I never lost any sleep over it.”

Arsenal fan Nick Hornby wrote in Fever Pitch that, even though he was embarrassed by the tackle as he stood on the Wembley terraces, “part of me actually enjoyed the foul”. “It was so comically, parodically Arsenalesque. Who else but an Arsenal defender would have clattered a tiny 17-year-old member of the academy?”

Whereas the laws of the game compelled the referee to dismiss Valverde on Sunday night, no such punishment existed in 1980. The referee at Wembley, George Courtney, merely awarded West Ham a free-kick and booked Young. In doing so, he opened a national debate. The meek punishment added credence to the idea that football needed a professional foul law.

Although most newspaper reports concentrated on West Ham’s victory and Brooking’s rare headed goal, they all referenced Young’s challenge. Some backed him, arguing that it was the law rather than the defender who was to blame. Others called the foul blatant, callous and cynical. Jeff Powell said it had created a “sour memory” for the watching world. “As long as professional fouls pay off, they will be committed,” noted the Mail’s comment section.

David Lacey wrote in the Guardian: “The Football Association may consider it worthwhile informing referees of their full support should they decide next season to dismiss those who commit such cynical, squalid fouls, for which yellow cards and free-kicks are inadequate punishments.”

When the Football League subsequently appointed a committee to consider ways of making football more entertaining – with Jimmy Hill chairing the discussion and both Matt Busby and Bobby Charlton asked for their opinions – they suggested that players committing professional fouls should be sent off. The law was introduced two years later. The change was obviously made to deter calculating defenders but, as Valverde showed, there is still room in the sport for pure cynicism. At least he ended up on the winning team. Young didn’t even have that consolation.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/that-1980s-sports-blog/2020/jan/14/story-professional-foul-willie-young-alvaro-morata

 

 

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Thanks - that’s a great read.

I remember it vividly and Young is right, he just clipped his foot so it tripped him over. It was all quite gentle really. 
It would have been quite a story for a 17 year old to have scored back when the FA Cup final was still one of biggest games of the season. 

67 games for Arsenal that year, no wonder they were knackered. 

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1 hour ago, historyman said:


67 games for Arsenal that year, no wonder they were knackered. 

And they weren't big on squad rotation back then and didn't have as many substitutes. 

Looking at the end of that season's fixtures it was crazy, Arsenal played 26th, 28th April followed by 1st, 3rd, 5th, 10th, 14th, 16th and 19th May as they finished league games, played FA Cup Semi (3rd replay!) and Final and European Cup Final. 

 

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10 hours ago, Pompey Exile said:

Why so many games? Is just down to multiple leg cup ties and replays?

 

They had a number of replays in both the League Cup and the FA Cup. 

Only 9 European Cup Winners Cup games though despite reaching the final. 

 

 

Edited by Prahakillie

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