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skygod

Hoffenheim v. Bayern

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Big story in the Bundesliga yesterday. 

Bayern were leading 6-0 when some of their supporters unfurled a banned insulting the president of Hoffenheim.  

He and the Bayern officials, including their ex-Hoffenheim coach, we’re furious with the Bayern contingent going to their fans and demanding they remove the banner. 

They refused so the players on the pitch played out the last 15 mins by kicking the ball about amongst themselves in a non-competitive way with the referee’s consent.

Wouldn’t it be good if this happened when there is racist chanting in Italy, or sectarian singing in Scotland? 

The players decide amongst themselves that they aren’t prepared to play any longer against that background? 

The circumstances of the match - relatively near the end with one team out of sight - meant that it was not that significant. 

If it had been in the opening quarter of an hour and goal-less would it have happened? 

I doubt it but the Bayern directors would possibly have forfeited the match, so angry did they seem to be. 

The protest was over how the Hoffenheim president has bought success - the village has a population of just 3,000 but plays in a 30,000 capacity arena.

 

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Two ways of looking at this for me. The banner doesn't compare with racism or sectarianism, it was an insult against the Hopp himself - I don't see why that merits a game being stopped? Insults at a football match, who'd have thunk it?

Dortmund fans are banned from Hoffenheim for the next 2 seasons for the same sort of thing. Koln and Gladbach have also had digs at him, even in matches not involving Hoffenheim themselves. I don't think it's particularly bad, but maybe that's just because we're used to far worse up here on a weekly basis which goes unpunished? 

On the other hand, I don't really understand what issue they've got against him/hoffenheim. A guy investing money in a club, deemed as bad because it doesn't fit the German football model. A model which allows Bayern to cherry pick the best players from the league for next to peanuts every single season yet its ok because its 'within the rules'? Seems absurd to me. 

I'd like to see RB Leipzig win the title, a different model to Hoffenheim but one which provokes similar outrage from the rest of the league. Be nice to watch the outrage unfold. 

 

 

 

 

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To be clear, I wasn’t saying that it compared with racism or sectarianism - just that the same response could be used in those cases. 

From the little I know about this case, I think it happened because the Bayern coach was incensed and the directors embarrassed. 

But the match wouldn’t have been effectively stopped without the complicity of the referee. 

He has the authority to ensure that the game is played within the Laws of the Game, which implies some element of competition. 

 

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1 minute ago, skygod said:

To be clear, I wasn’t saying that it compared with racism or sectarianism - just that the same response could be used in those cases. 

From the little I know about this case, I think it happened because the Bayern coach was incensed and the directors embarrassed. 

But the match wouldn’t have been effectively stopped without the complicity of the referee. 

He has the authority to ensure that the game is played within the Laws of the Game, which implies some element of competition. 

 

Yeah. If it was stopped for a third time then the match would have been abandoned. I assume in that case the points would be awarded to Hoffenheim too. It just seems a bit of a trivial matter to stop the game for. Whilst I completely disagree with the point which the German ultras are trying to make, it probably didn't merit quite the reaction its received. 

Dortmund's one was Hopp pictured in crosshairs, a bit more serious and probably worthy of their ban in that case. 

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7 hours ago, Dieter's Heeder said:

Two ways of looking at this for me. The banner doesn't compare with racism or sectarianism, it was an insult against the Hopp himself - I don't see why that merits a game being stopped? Insults at a football match, who'd have thunk it?

It’s still the continual abuse of one human being across many games and many weekends. 
That ok? 

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1 minute ago, Bobby14 said:

It’s still the continual abuse of one human being across many games and many weekends. 
That ok? 

Like referees you mean? Or opposition players/fans? 

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3 minutes ago, Bobby14 said:

It’s still the continual abuse of one human being across many games and many weekends. 
That ok? 

Abuse, a banner ?  Wouldn't happen if UEFA actually did something about clubs buying success. 

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7 minutes ago, Wrangodog said:

Abuse, a banner ?  Wouldn't happen if UEFA actually did something about clubs buying success. 

Clubs have 'bought success' for over a century. This isn't a new thing. On the case of hoffenheim themselves, we're talking about a fan of the club who used to play with them as a kid. What right should UEFA have to tell him how he should or shouldn't spend his money, when others have been permitted the same advantage in the past allowing them to be where they are now? 

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34 minutes ago, Dieter's Heeder said:

Clubs have 'bought success' for over a century. This isn't a new thing. On the case of hoffenheim themselves, we're talking about a fan of the club who used to play with them as a kid. What right should UEFA have to tell him how he should or shouldn't spend his money, when others have been permitted the same advantage in the past allowing them to be where they are now? 

Fair enough, but it isn't abuse. 

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37 minutes ago, Wrangodog said:

Fair enough, but it isn't abuse. 

Yep. I'm agreeing with you on that. 

I'm in the strange situation of both being on Hopp and Hoffenheim's side in all of this but also feel the reaction to what's happened is ott. 

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6 hours ago, Bobby14 said:

It’s still the continual abuse of one human being across many games and many weekends. 
That ok? 

It’s not just one human though. In scotland Example, Scott Brown. Every time we play Celtic he gets it tight. He also gets it tight from every other teams supporters. Is that the same thing? 
Genuine question.

Unless it’s racist, sectarian etc you will never stop it. Is it a form of bullying? Arguably. Fans pay money and as a result rightly or wrongly shout abuse or insults to put players off. 
 

 

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The abuse in the Hoffenheim - Bayern case was insulting to Hopp's mother, who had no part in the match. 

 

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15 minutes ago, skygod said:

The abuse in the Hoffenheim - Bayern case was insulting to Hopp's mother, who had no part in the match. 

 

Amazing that his mother had no part in the match, his father was a Nazi. 

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I’m not sure what your point is. 

The discussion seemed to have broadened into whether general abuse of players and referees is fair game. 

I was making the point that the banner in question was insulting not only to Hopp but his mother, who had nothing to do with the match, whether she is dead or alive.

The equivalent, if you like, of being offensive about Scott Brown’s sister, to continue the above example.

 

Edited by skygod

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9 hours ago, skygod said:

I’m not sure what your point is. 

The discussion seemed to have broadened into whether general abuse of players and referees is fair game. 

I was making the point that the banner in question was insulting not only to Hopp but his mother, who had nothing to do with the match, whether she is dead or alive.

The equivalent, if you like, of being offensive about Scott Brown’s sister, to continue the above example.

 

I'm not sure what my point was either, I broke my rule of not posting when (a) p*ssed (b) not feeling well, or (c) a combination of the first two. 

I agree that the banner shouldn't have referred to his mother, but there are obviously strong feelings in Germany against this man and his team. Whether that is through jealousy due to them taking league positions from other teams or whether Hoffenheim are breaking the connection between fan and club that has made the Bundesliga the force that it is. The Bundesliga has grown through lowering the cost of attending games and fan involvement with their clubs, we have seen what that means with the interaction between the Kaiserslautern fans and our own supporters. Are the banners any worse than what we chanted at MJ when he was sitting in the director's box at away games, or the abuse that the Lauchlan board got in their time ? 

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Just now, Squirrelhumper said:

Aye, they are a german Gretna.

difference is Hopp is unlikely to ever run out of money, he's made billions from SAP

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On 3/1/2020 at 4:34 PM, Dieter's Heeder said:

Clubs have 'bought success' for over a century. This isn't a new thing. On the case of hoffenheim themselves, we're talking about a fan of the club who used to play with them as a kid. What right should UEFA have to tell him how he should or shouldn't spend his money, when others have been permitted the same advantage in the past allowing them to be where they are now? 

Not UEFA, the home association. The crux of the matter is that they are getting preferential treatment while the rest of the clubs have to abide by the 50+1 ruling and they don't. Like it or not it has enhanced the game in Germany hugely.

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On 3/1/2020 at 4:17 PM, Bobby14 said:

It’s still the continual abuse of one human being across many games and many weekends. 
That ok? 

If thats the criteria then we should be stopping every game on Rory's behalf. :5:

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2 hours ago, Culley159 said:

Not UEFA, the home association. The crux of the matter is that they are getting preferential treatment while the rest of the clubs have to abide by the 50+1 ruling and they don't. Like it or not it has enhanced the game in Germany hugely.

They don't, but neither Wolfsburg or Leverkusen for example receive anything like the criticism of Hopp/Hoffenheim. 

FWIW I think the 50+1 rule has its benefits, mainly what it does for fan culture, but its also preventing clubs from growth. In turn you'll continue to see Bayern dominate for years to come, cherry picking from anyone who dares to compete for a season or two. 

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On 3/4/2020 at 12:32 AM, Dieter's Heeder said:

FWIW I think the 50+1 rule has its benefits, mainly what it does for fan culture, but its also preventing clubs from growth.

Sorry I can't agree with that at all. There will always be clubs that dominate leagues, the 50+1 rule has for the most part stopped Gretnas happening, that's growth but its artificially stimulated, its like athletes taking steroids and performance enhancing drugs to get better results. Clubs should have ambition to achieve the best they can but in a sustainable fashion so the very fabric of the club does not come under threat. There are exceptions to every rule and  that is what is happening here and why the German fans are rallying against it. As for cherry picking, that's how the transfer system works, 'big' clubs buy from smaller clubs and the smaller clubs get the money and try and invest it the best they can. The better a club does the more fans it brings in and the more money they get, allowing them to financially compete with 'bigger' clubs. Success breeds success, that's what its all about, finding the right combination and winning things, not just buying everything.

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