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Scaremongering or Not, Corona Virus = Nae Killie

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2 hours ago, Zorro said:

 

When Gove / Johnston hyperbole finally crashes into engineering and the laws if physics.

When "thus great country can rise to the challenge" finally has a one to one meeting with what can we actually deliver.

 

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2 hours ago, Zorro said:

 

The news a couple of days ago said that the Mercedes group were working on CPAP machines as opposed to ventilators.  These force air into the lungs without the need for any other medical intervention (drugs, monitoring etc) and are primarily used to treat Sleep Apnea. Figures suggest that 50% of victims put on a CPAP recover without needing to use a ventilator.

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2 hours ago, Zorro said:

 

This was kinda my point about Bojo "Hiding", he can chair meetings, so get on the web conference today and instead of passing it to the "scientist" on my virtual right, explain why, to support our glorious nation, that poor Dr was persuaded to come out of retirement and did not get protection and now he is gone.  That's a lion gone to the slaughter. Shameful. He has the perfect get out has he not the coward. 

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28 minutes ago, chubbs said:

The news a couple of days ago said that the Mercedes group were working on CPAP machines as opposed to ventilators.  These force air into the lungs without the need for any other medical intervention (drugs, monitoring etc) and are primarily used to treat Sleep Apnea. Figures suggest that 50% of victims put on a CPAP recover without needing to use a ventilator.

This looks like the way forward. These machines are much less difficult to make and dont need so many trained folks to work them.

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29 minutes ago, Shropshire_killie said:

This was kinda my point about Bojo "Hiding", he can chair meetings, so get on the web conference today and instead of passing it to the "scientist" on my virtual right, explain why, to support our glorious nation, that poor Dr was persuaded to come out of retirement and did not get protection and now he is gone.  That's a lion gone to the slaughter. Shameful. He has the perfect get out has he not the coward. 

But ... but ...but ... he's working incredibly hard to protect the wonderful people of thus great country ...

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7 minutes ago, gdevoy said:

But ... but ...but ... he's working incredibly hard to protect the wonderful people of thus great country ...

Noticing even the Daily Mail last couple of days getting a bit disgruntled. I want to see his timesheet, he is a civil servant after all. I want to see the minutes of the meetings. That scientist mentioning "green shoots showing", on Tuesday may have been premature. 

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My brother will be producing ventilators (could be CPAP) at Rolls Royce, but they don't start till Monday.  All the places that can do it at volume are probably still frantically reconfiguring machines at present.

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1 hour ago, chubbs said:

The news a couple of days ago said that the Mercedes group were working on CPAP machines as opposed to ventilators.  These force air into the lungs without the need for any other medical intervention (drugs, monitoring etc) and are primarily used to treat Sleep Apnea. Figures suggest that 50% of victims put on a CPAP recover without needing to use a ventilator.

CPAP machines are a valuable tool to bridge the gap between needing oxygen and needing an ICU bed with a ventilator. But they’re a bit like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke. Our ICU is already over capacity. Run out of machines and ......

It is unbelievable how quickly people go from what we’d consider manageable on a ward to needing ICU or unfortunately dead. It’s actually terrifying. 
 

Does anyone know anything about oxygen production? I know the tanks get filled by tankers, but would they be able to cope with a huge spike in demand?

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21 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Does anyone know anything about oxygen production? 

55% of supply is used in smelting Iron and Steel ore - we probably had a lot more oxygen supply and production back in the day before Thatcher.

Edited by RAG

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Quick question for anyone in the know. Heard a lot of people talking about and using the worldometer site for information. Any idea if it's reliable? Figures for Spain today for example seem different from what the BBC is quoting, but don't really know at this time which is actually more reliable than the other. 

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10 deaths recorded in Scotland in the last 24 hrs ... plus an additional 40 that have been confirmed from previous days.

 

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2 hours ago, Dieter's Heeder said:

Quick question for anyone in the know. Heard a lot of people talking about and using the worldometer site for information. Any idea if it's reliable? 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

That's the American University the media are getting their worldwide data from.  Is only down to country level outside the US, but you can see on the interactive  map down to district level in US and how totally out of control it is in New York.  They have more cases there now than in whole of China.

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3 minutes ago, RAG said:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

That's the American University the media are getting their worldwide data from.  Is only down to country level outside the US, but you can see on the interactive  map down to district level in US and how totally out of control it is in New York.  They have more cases there now than in whole of China.

Noted that the Czech Republic have comparatively few deaths considering , could be down to compulsory face mask use when the population are outside ? 

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Doctors are being told that, as the coronavirus pandemic spreads, they will face "agonising choices" over who gets potentially life-saving treatments.

The British Medical Association has issued ethical guidance for those working on the front line.

The professional body says there needs to be an urgent public debate about the issue in these "unprecedented times".

It warns that despite "heroic efforts" to boost capacity, the NHS may be overwhelmed.

The government has ordered thousands of ventilators to help ease the pressure on hospitals caused by the coronavirus crisis.

These, along with specialist life-support machines called ECMO (Extra Corporeal Membrane Oxygenation), will be needed for the sickest patients to aid breathing and, when possible, save lives.

Deciding who gets what care

Doctors have to make difficult choices about treatment in their everyday practice, but the coronavirus outbreak means they will have to make life-death decisions more often and sometimes based on capacity rather than just need, the BMA is warning.

The guidelines say:

  • All patients should be given compassionate and dedicated medical care, including symptom management and - where patients are dying - the best available end-of-life care
  • Nevertheless, it is legal and ethical to prioritise treatment among patients. This applies where there are more patients with needs than there are resources available.

When resources are too scarce and choices have to be made about who to treat, doctors are urged to consider:

  • Severity of acute illness
  • Presence and severity of co-morbidity
  • Frailty or, where clinically relevant, age

The BMA says managers and senior doctors will set "thresholds" for admission to intensive care units - the places where the most sick will need treating with ventilators.

By itself, infection with coronavirus should not guarantee priority for treatment, it says.

Patients whose "probability" of dying, or requiring prolonged intensive support, exceeds the set threshold would not be considered for intensive treatment. They should still receive other forms of medical care, says the advice.

Banner image reading 'more about coronavirus' Banner

Dr John Chisholm, chair of the BMA's medical ethics committee, said: "The headlines are stark: a 'tsunami' of Covid-19 patients moving inexorably toward London's hospitals and then heading to the rest of the UK.

"Despite heroic efforts to increase supply - and reduce demand - there may come a point where the pandemic will simply overwhelm intensive care beds, ventilators, ECMO life-support.

"As all working on this know, guidance, essential as it is, does not preclude the need to address these enormously challenging ethical questions.

"Guidance can indicate how to proceed. It cannot stop the choices being brutal or relieve decision-makers of their moral distress."

He added: "Looking ahead to the coming weeks, if hard choices are required, we know they will be contested. There will be anger and pain.

"People who, in normal circumstances, would receive strenuous treatment may instead be given palliation in order to favour those with greater likelihood of benefiting. Nobody wants to make these decisions, but if resources are overwhelmed, these decisions must be made."

Medical ethicist and barrister Daniel Sokol said: "While the guidance highlights the ethical issues and dilemmas doctors will face, it will leave some puzzled and perhaps frustrated about how to apply the principles in practice.

"The guidance recognises that a challenge may be that large numbers of people requiring intensive care are likely to be equally suitable for it.

"But it doesn't give a clear answer to how doctors should select among this large group."

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22 minutes ago, RAG said:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

That's the American University the media are getting their worldwide data from.  Is only down to country level outside the US, but you can see on the interactive  map down to district level in US and how totally out of control it is in New York.  They have more cases there now than in whole of China.

Yeah, just wondering if anyone knows about the discrepancy between some of those figures and the ones from worldometer. Worldometer seems just as in depth if not more, but if they're figures aren't accurate it's probably not worth my time browsing. 

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20 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

Noted that the Czech Republic have comparatively few deaths considering , could be down to compulsory face mask use when the population are outside ? 

Low infection rates in South Korea too where they go for face mask use.  Seems a mask prevents spread to others, probably by reducing viral load spewed out by an infected individual.   Read some theory earlier on it could be up to 8m rather than 2m it can travel in a sneeze or cough, as it's difficult for them to simulate human sneezes or coughs in a lab.  So masks (or even a dishtowel) would limit that additional  'range' if you like.  (Not that I'm a medical professional or anything!)

Edited by RAG

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16 minutes ago, RAG said:

Low infection rates in South Korea too where they go for face mask use.  Seems a mask prevents spread to others, probably by reducing viral load spewed out by an infected individual.   Read some theory earlier on it could be up to 8m rather than 2m it can travel in a sneeze or cough, as it's difficult for them to simulate human sneezes or coughs in a lab.  So masks (or even a dishtowel) would limit that additional  'range' if you like.  (Not that I'm a medical professional or anything!)

There isn’t enough verifiable data on the use of any type of face masks to say for certain that they’re effective but anecdotally is seems to be effective . I previously asked Prahakillie for comment who I believe lives in the Czech Republic for his take on it . 

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1 minute ago, Bonbon19 said:

There isn’t enough verifiable data on the use of any type of face masks to say for certain that they’re effective but anecdotally is seems to be effective . I previously asked Prahakillie for comment who I believe lives in the Czech Republic for his take on it . 

Effective in what though?  Seems to me they may be most effective in not preventing you getting it, but preventing you passing it on - especially given 1/3 of people are asymptomatic and unaware they have it.   They filter out 97% of airborne particles.

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3 minutes ago, RAG said:

Effective in what though?  Seems to me they may be most effective in not preventing you getting it, but preventing you passing it on - especially given 1/3 of people are asymptomatic and unaware they have it.   They filter out 97% of airborne particles.

If you read a report by a professor David Haymann from WHO he’s looking at the efficacy of face masks . The concern is that people use them incorrectly . Paper masks are the least effective especially if reused , washable Cotton seems to be the best for the general public to utilise 

Edited by Bonbon19

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1 minute ago, Bonbon19 said:

If you read a report by a professor David Haymann from WHO he’s looking at the efficacy of face masks . The concern is that people use them incorrectly . 

They're not effective against catching it, unless you change them all the time correctly and cleanly - how you do that unless you've got 10 a day to burn through is anyones guess.  But there does seem to be greater spread in big Western cities where people don't wear masks in public, than in Asia across the board.  

Especially marked in places like NYC or London where people are crammed in like sardines on subway trains or the underground.

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12 minutes ago, Bonbon19 said:

washable Cotton seems to be the best for the general public to utilise 

That's what people are using. 

The message is that it helps prevent the spread, not necessarily prevents you from getting it. 

A barrier method which I think helps and if they get everyone wearing it, which they have just about, it should slow the spread. 

Statistics at the moment look as if that is the case. 

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7 minutes ago, RAG said:

Especially marked in places like NYC or London where people are crammed in like sardines on subway trains or the underground.

In Prague they kept public transport running as normal despite massive reduction in demand. So often trams, buses, metro trains are running around almost empty even through normal rush hours but has to be better than reducing the service and cramming everyone in. 

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1 minute ago, Prahakillie said:

In Prague they kept public transport running as normal despite massive reduction in demand. So often trams, buses, metro trains are running around almost empty even through normal rush hours but has to be better than reducing the service and cramming everyone in. 

Meanwhile in London..

 

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2 minutes ago, Prahakillie said:

In Prague they kept public transport running as normal despite massive reduction in demand. So often trams, buses, metro trains are running around almost empty even through normal rush hours but has to be better than reducing the service and cramming everyone in. 

Not like the Tube in London, sidenote  visited Cesky Krumlov in czech Republic where i believed they filmed Horror flick Hostel cracking place

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